#010: Reviewing the Latest CMOsurvey.org Survey Results

The following is a straight-up machine translation. It has not been human-reviewed or human-corrected. We apologize on behalf of the machines for any text that winds up being incorrect, nonsensical, or offensive. We have asked the machine to do better, but it simply responds with, “I’m sorry, Dave. I’m afraid I can’t do that.”

[00:00:25] Welcome everyone to the digital analytics power hour. This is episode 10.

[00:00:31] Tonight we’re going to try something a little bit experimental and that we have a guest on the show that guest is a document. And we’re going to talk about it. So we’re discussing tonight the Fuqua business school CMO survey. It’s published twice a year in August and February. And so tonight we’re tearing apart the February 2015 results. I am always joined by my two cohosts Tim Kaine and Tim Wilson and Jim Kane.

[00:01:00] Were in the same room but that does not mean we’re in the same body. But thanks for the tip there.

[00:01:06] I think it was right to make me the husband in this relationship.

[00:01:10] KATHY WILSON Yes so we’re in the same room but we are not in Indiana. And we can go in this couple of week manner and served in another podcast. First we’ve got Jim and Tim in the same room. Guys how are you doing tonight. Great. Fantastic. Awesome. All right.

[00:01:31] So let’s dig into this thing so this is a survey that I’ve been reading for a few years. I always love to see it come out. I feel like it helps us understand better what’s going on in the mind of a CMO. Just to give people a little bit of background you can actually find this survey at CMO survey that Goerge and it’s run by the end of the school business. Christine Morman is the director of the CMO survey and she’s also a professor at the Fuqua School of Business.

[00:02:00] So we’re going to talk about this. So first let me throw it out to you guys. What really popped out in this survey to you and maybe as we talk about it we can break down the structure for folks is there a lesson. So

[00:02:10] there were a couple of things that jumped out that were I would probably say surprising yet depressing. Maybe the higher level one and obviously you know most interested in the marketing analytics piece and you know part of the survey does breaks down how the marketing spend and the allocation of different activities is expected to change over the coming three to five years and 4 percent of marketing budgets spent on marketing analytics. You know the current levels overall for the surveyed companies. It’s a six point four percent and it’s saying in the next three years you know the mean is that their expectation is it is going to go to eleven point seven percent. So OK great that’s good right. That that’s increased investment in analytics. Right. And you say that great thing to contrast it with a couple of slides and the results later is asking the question OK you recognize you must be getting a lot of value out of analytics because you’re deciding you should do more of it.

[00:03:12] And they ask the question to what degree does the use of marketing analytics contribute to your company’s performance in a one was not at all in a 7 was very highly. And as of February when they did the survey marketing only got to three point two. So it was it was below the middle of the road. And that’s actually the lowest it has been since they were they it like every six months. And that’s the lowest score that it’s ever gotten. It’s been as high as 3.0. And so that has me looking at it saying well you could read that as saying at a macro level they’re thinking that we’re not getting enough value out of marketing analytics because we’re not investing enough in marketing analytics. But the one other wrinkle from the survey here was that they said that less than a third is that what they said 29 percent of projects use marketing analytics that are available are requested and trying to square those. I mean it feels real to me it feels like hey there’s more stuff to spend money on. We’ve got vendors coming with DMP and optimization platforms and tag management systems. We’ve got ways we can spend more money. But the fact is it sounds like you’ve got stuff in place now you’ve got data available now that you’re not using. I’m skeptical that there are people saying oh we’re going to nearly double our staff so we’ve got capacity it seems like it’s kind of representing what I think is kind of a skewed perception of what it takes. We’re not getting a lot of value out of marketing analytics.

[00:04:50] We’re not trying to a third of the time are two thirds of the time. We’re not even trying to use the data that’s available and yet we’re thinking that we’re going to grow our investment and somehow magically we’re now going to get more value. So it’s kind of depressing.

[00:05:05] What I think is an interesting counterpoint is the one at the beginning of the day when it talks about the economy at the beginning and most CFOs feel bullish about the economy for the first time since the beginning of the recession. And then you see that they’re not measuring anything. I almost wonder if that’s like senior marketing decision makers are going to see less accountability there’s more budget. The market is better. We don’t need to measure everything as rigorously as maybe we need to.

[00:05:33] I guess there’s a certain portion part of me that could agree with that assessment. Certainly when you know when we went into the recession one of the things I certainly noticed was companies were looking for ways to get more value out of current investments into trying to leverage analytics and meaningful ways to do that kind of stuff. But yeah it fights me a little bit though the fact that they do this survey you know we’re going to make this big growth investment and yet we’re trending downward in terms of where we’re using it and how affected we think it is. I look at this survey and I view it what I’m seeing there and maybe you do too. And I love Jim the contrast you’re putting it to because I want us to think about it from every angle but it’s almost like it’s like we’re seeing an existential threat to what we do as analysts. You know we’ve got an opportunity to become pivotal to what business is and what marketing is especially in the context of digital. And are we missing our opportunity to actually engage and become strategically connected.

[00:06:42] Sounds great because I’m from a consulting company. But the thing that I found was interesting also is that I say interesting a lot I find it fascinating. I literally find that interesting. They’re spending more money on measurement.

[00:06:56] They just find it less valuable and they’re using it less which I think that’s I’m trying to understand how the existential threat.

[00:07:03] Maybe it’s just too fancy of a word or what I mean by that is that eventually they’ll start realizing why are we spending money on something we don’t use.

[00:07:11] But it seems like it is inconceivable that the use of analytics will decrease. Right like there’s no I can’t envision a future where we just punched the button and go back to the Mad Men era. It’s all on gut. I think it maybe maybe the threat is that the analyst becomes the next CMO. Well that was actually I didn’t have this in my notes but I think it actually had like the average tenure of marketing readership was much longer than the 27 months that usually gets tossed around. But is it possible. Well we’ve talked in the past about how the analysts have a very short tenure because another opportunity comes along. There’s something else that can jump on and it’s up to the analysts to choice. Even move on to something else because there is a demand gap. Is it possible that what we’ll hit is that there will be this churn of frustration with the analytics leadership that the CMO and the C CEO and the CIO will be looking at what’s being delivered and they’ll say we’re not getting value we’re spending a crap ton of money in the revolving door was shift from the CMO to an elevated analytics position. That is not a well baked thought at all.

[00:08:23] That occurred to me while we were discussing this but I think it was interesting it was interesting and you know to a certain extent I’m very displeased that neither of you are buying into my chicken little theory here. You know why can’t we have an existential threat once in a while but it wasn’t that he envisioned future where. So no I agree with you that it’s not that clitics will go away. You know we’ll all start drinking in the office and being sexist again. That was the Mad Men reference yeah that was a Mad Men reference. That was how you do business in Atlanta. Yeah.

[00:08:58] I mean the South. Or is it possible is it possible that what if instead you go down the path of being I mean how this will be the potshot banner ads and display media that women in evidence that it’s super effective but people have gotten so used into carving up a big chunk of their budget for it that they just keep doing it and they’re like we have to be churning out reports don’t you feel like display is getting a rebirth because of the advent of really great retargeting and DMP. That is another topic on your other another.

[00:09:34] I won’t qualify. You said just say it could be used effectively. I don’t know. Like I feel like there’s renewed interest in this play anyways as a whole other topic. I think so too but there’s probably also a renewed interest in phrenology and I know people who wear magnets on their wrists to help with.

[00:09:54] This shit.

[00:09:56] Do you have a weird shaped skull Jim I want to go back to the.

[00:10:05] We’re going to spend more.

[00:10:07] We’re using it let’s let’s let’s be clear here. They plan to spend more than they’re spending today. But the reality on the ground is they use it less in key decision making. The point being though is that it’s not growing at the same pace that we planned to grow spending.

[00:10:25] Right. There’s no question that we’re finding it more valuable so we’re investing more.

[00:10:29] And in actuality we’re only looking at the topline report here but there is a breakout by industry and you can see in a somewhat kind of like this makes a lot of sense kind of way. Business to consumer product companies are at forty six point nine percent right whereas at B2B product companies are B2B service companies are twenty three point three which makes a ton of sense and they way with those percentages.

[00:10:53] Clarify you’re saying that that’s the percentage of prosecution or requested by you. Yes yes yes.

[00:10:59] So I had the same type B2C product is it lends itself to I’m in retail I’m use marketing analytics and digital analytics to help me understand customer behavior.

[00:11:10] We talked before. Was it the last episode we did where we like indefensibly hippo. With that in mind is that disconnect showing up in this data like CMOs like I’m spending money on it. Oh I think we’re doing anything with it.

[00:11:25] I don’t have access to the analysts that actually might nail it like that maybe the persona if you were going to put a slide up and say that that’s what it is. I’m all I can do is spend money on it. That’s the easiest thing but it’s easy to carve out money from somewhere else. I’m committing to spending more yet I’m doing that partly because I’m frustrated that we’re not getting more use out of it but I don’t know that CMOs are recognizing that. Disconnect. That was the Emo’s.

[00:11:54] What did they know. Right.

[00:11:57] Well I think from their analyst apparently well and that’s that’s kind of what I mean like I want to talk to the CMO right. If I’m an analyst in a company the CMO and I should be friends we should be working together. And if I’m not talking to CMOs language he and I or she and I are not going to we’re not going to hang out right. So we don’t stay the same. I think the same things. Well let’s jump to another section.

[00:12:24] So what else did you guys see what was interesting that we could talk about that one was kind of a wow if you look at these and you compare them you kind of scratch your head and say this doesn’t this doesn’t feel good. The one that is probably more mind blowing is that thirteen point two percent was the percent of the respondents have been able to quantify the impact of social media. No big surprise. It’s tough. It’s tough to quantify the impact social media. Now forty two percent. Forty one point eight percent said that they have a qualitative sense that it’s working for them. So they’re looking around they’ve got anecdotal evidence that’s how I’m interpreting that that yeah we think this social as a good thing but 45 percent haven’t yet been able to show the impact of social media at all. So. OK. Yet the expected the plan. The expectation is that the growth in spend on social is expected to go from nine point nine percent of their budgets to twenty two point four percent of their budgets over the next five years. So they’re saying that’s half of the respondents are saying we can’t actually quantify the impact of what we’re doing on social. We can’t measure it effectively and yet we’re going to more than double how much we’re spending on it and that kind of has me scratching my head whether that is because they assume the measurement will catch up measurements always lagging the actual channel. History has shown no. Or is it that they’re just saying they’ve kind of thrown their hands up and said that’s where my consumers are.

[00:13:59] I’ve got to do it and I’m ok fine blind I’m OK. Making this the equivalent of television in the 1970s.

[00:14:07] But I went through that whole section of slides and my head I just picture like a chapter title called bullshit. It’s delicious.

[00:14:17] What does social media do. I don’t know but we need to use an agency and we need to triple our budget.

[00:14:23] Do you want to be where your consumers are. Yes. Do we have data that says consumers are social. Yes. OK. That means you need to be in social life. There’s kind of a if x then y. The challenge is that you have no ability to tune that in any way and you can waste a ton of money on social. If you don’t have any way to compare different different efforts different activities. And I question whether there is any sense of yes we have a plan to do that. We have a plan to move those those percentages.

[00:14:58] Yeah what I’d like know is Who are these 13 percent of companies who have quantitatively proven the impact of social. I’m fascinated by that. Like there’s a lot we can learn from those companies. But how do we go that or are those just the disillusioned CMOs who think they’re doing that and they should be over in the 45 percent who haven’t been able to show the impact yet.

[00:15:22] Or are they maybe maybe the breakout industry or detail would show. Or are they just uniquely in an area where there’s a there is a rationale for having a direct response social call. And therefore it’s a simpler world of saying yes we can quantify that. We generated x dollars of revenue as direct clickthrough is from. Right.

[00:15:46] So we built a product that lives inside of Facebook or something. Yes our entire you know.

[00:15:53] Then there’s that there’s that extreme. There’s also ones that say yeah we’re a low cost seller or something and people just follow us for deals and that’s a good point it would be would be great to try to understand. Yeah sorry.

[00:16:07] Like in my mind when I see kind of the lay of this I always think about the Gartner hype cycle like we’re now at this peak of whatever that peak is called. You guys know what I’m talking about what the Gard’ner what hype cycle. Oh yeah the Gartmann Gartner hype cycle. Yeah. And so in a certain sense like we were talking about analytics before maybe we’re in the trough of disillusionment right around that. And right now social is really kind of at this really high expectation. Like I’m I believe in this and we just think it’s going to create so much value for us as a company we’re going to put a ton more money into it even though we haven’t made all of the prove out quantitatively what it’s doing for us as a business.

[00:16:50] Troppo dissolution Yeah that’s a gardener. It sounds like Dungeons and Dragons Eshel weapon. Anything about that but it’s really. So that’s you know I was actually talking to somebody today because a few years ago I sort of had a minor epiphany and I called it the first duration gap but I’m not going to want to map it to the Gartner hype cycle where we know that there is much much more data out there. And so our expectation is now that we we never we haven’t been able to tie our spend on these marketing channels directly to the end result. We now have massive amounts of data. Our assumption is that with more data we now have the ability to tie from a tweet all the way to a purchase or from a TV viewer from an ad view or from a banner ad. And so more data becomes available. We actually can measure more and get more visibility much more than we could 10 years ago. But the expectation has kind of shot past that. And so when you’re asking a question of you know are you measuring this effectively you’re getting a low measured low scores because the expectation is inflated rather than because you’re truly under delivering. Like if the expectations come down then on a seven point scale you’re going to get a higher rating. Is that possible.

[00:18:16] I just roll the dice 20 and killed you with my trough of disillusionment but I just had the plateau of enlightenment and had a saving throw. Wow. Consoles are awesome. It’s very llf right. So here’s another thing I thought was really interesting to me. If you look over on Slide 43 of the document it’s talking about using Westerners who were following along while driving in the car we recommend that you look at Slide 43 right now what people read in the car all the time. It’s just a fact of life. Now I’m in the car right now. Yes. No but it’s talking about using online customer behavioral data and you know how you expect to use it in the future and things like that and it’s really interesting because everybody thinks they’re going to use more of that. And so this this just validates kind of what we’re already seeing which is right now is a great time to be a DMP right. You know moving data from a behavioral collection platform over to places I can use it for marketing purposes whether that be site site optimization or media segmentation or anything like that. There’s a big future in that.

[00:19:31] So that’s No we’re looking for new business ideas and investments that I will take two things one Jim and I in the same room. At the same conference I want to have a dinner last night with they’re not a DMP but they are kind of a customer behavioral cross chain or data collection platform. It was interesting watching one of their customers ask them start throwing out other companies that were kind of in a similar space and the vendor had not heard of like half of them so I think that maybe it’s another area you know we’ve talked about the Martek you know technology landscape before that there is just this explosion of.

[00:20:09] Companies and there is an explosion of investment and it slides like these that say ERT’s it’s results like these it’s a ninety two point three percent of CMOs are going to increase their use of customer behavior data. What. Guess what. You see a number like that and you say I’m going to start a company like that or if I’m a VC I’m going to invest in a company like that whether or not that actually bears out remains to be seen. But you contrast that with the question about concerns about privacy and there like. Not really. Yeah.

[00:20:47] Nobody is concerned about privacy as much as you would think. Yeah that was interesting.

[00:20:52] The the thing that I wonder about these. I mean I always think of the X plus one right up Wall Street Journal and everybody freaked out a few years ago.

[00:21:00] Give the calls notes on the xposed on a kender efforts or in the same room trying to be visible really remember this one.

[00:21:08] It was like a Wall Street Journal article from three years ago or something called I’m accessing my brain and googling it now. So I don’t know a good dog on credit card.

[00:21:24] And they used X plus one where they tied together your wedding date online data corporate data and they would show you a credit card product designed specifically for who they think you are and their accuracy level is like through the roof. OK. And so then the rest of the article is like a detailed breakdown on wire or checks and balances. Do you realize these kinds of things are possible and it blew my mind. I didn’t. We don’t do stuff like that. I don’t know if CMOs are buying technology that necessarily does this but they’re being sold it. I think if you asked this same question and you said in ways like this your average CMO would come back and be like hell no. That’s creepy but we’re doing this part like we’re doing a small subset of what that means.

[00:22:14] Well I mean the question is this was slide 44 in that highlights and inside that was how worried are you that the use of online customer data could raise questions about privacy. So it’s just the use of it could raise questions right. Not even like you’ll get burned or it’s it’s an ethical issue or it could damage your business. It’s just like that it could raise questions and it was again a seven point scale seven being very worried one being not at all worried. And if you do the math it’s something you know over well over 50 percent close to 60 percent were three or below online customer data to most people and to most practitioners is.

[00:23:00] Visit’s traffic source like you don’t think you can do anything creepy with it until you realize that with this question actually means is we can mash it up with your customer file. We can mash it up with one of these data cooperatives. You can do unbelievably 1984 stuff. And I think again when you ask this question with the word I lived in it. I see I’m going to go now what do I care.

[00:23:26] Because they’re thinking aggregate web analytics and we’re going to use that as opposed to bait.

[00:23:31] I mean the slope from the slippery slope from there to retargeting to really building out a you know cross channel cross you know customer record is a slippery one. I mean we’re seeing some of the academic effort where academic exercise where they said we’ve gone to see how much stuff can we find out about it in a way that doesn’t scale what they can say Hey it’s it’s it’s crazy how much we can. I mean I do think that it’s again a whole other episode. This is just generating potential future episodes. But the privacy concerns.

[00:24:05] One there’s there’s a delta between when one company proves out something is theoretically possible and that can get spun as oh my god companies can do this tomorrow whereas the reality is companies have trouble getting there based web analytics page tech consistently deployed on all pages on their site. So it’s a it’s a theoretical but not is real risk.

[00:24:28] Still you have to say that it’s probably an existential threat to mean privacy and privacy probably is a whole other.

[00:24:41] Well right. Because like what would this chart look like if we asked Simos in the EU. Right. I bet we’d have a whole other complexion but it’s one of those things that again it’s a combination of like most companies don’t have some sort of evil plan like actually with all this data. There’s just not that competent to be frank. But on the flip side that lack of foresight of how are we going to use this data could quickly take your company in a direction that they could come to regret just because they did it blindly and then suddenly end up with an outcome of hey we’ve got a really useful thing that also is just doing something with our customers information that is awkward and potentially not not a good thing.

[00:25:28] Right. So that’s that’s kind of that’s sort of the kind of dissonance of. And Jim I think you can hit it earlier where if you say I’m thinking of it as a marketer in this mass of a pool of people that we can collect stuff and market to more effectively. And then if you actually pivoted and say OK that means here’s what if you are one of our consumers we would be doing X Y and Z and they’re like oh wait a minute or not you for your for your 13 year old daughter. You know this is well what that means. And they’re like all the sudden they’re creeped out and I don’t know that that is being you know we’re hungry for saying we want to know we want to segment they want to personalized one to make things relevant.

[00:26:04] It’s like well to really make stuff relevant. You really have to have a lot of information which means you you’re going to have that information and if that was you would you be you know creeped out.

[00:26:15] So there’s one more slide I want to jump to really quick and then I think we should probably start to wrap things up here but there was another slide that I thought was interesting the analytics section slide 65 and it’s talking about does your company formally evaluate the quality of your marketing analytics. I thought that was a really interesting from a data governance perspective. And of course the vast majority don’t do anything to evaluate how good of a quality is the analytics data or analytics that we’re doing. And I thought that was really interesting too. Any quick comments on that.

[00:26:51] I think it’s interesting that it says marketing analytics and digital analytics. Yeah. It’s all encompassing numbers would be way lower.

[00:27:00] You think there is a smaller percentage went for Yeah. Well you know it’s funny when I read that and this is not a survey writer and not a methodology person because I read almost as the value delivered but I think you’re right. That’s actually more data quality question and it does go to probably the reality into Jim’s point.

[00:27:18] If marketing analytics includes my customer database that probably have a little more runway to get customer to in a moment in place and web analytics because so much of the data is not tied to a specific customer record is kind of the just like organizationally it’s often still sort of living off in a silo that kind of says if you don’t then you must not have a formal date a governance plan because isn’t that one of the tenets of governance is actually ongoing evaluation of data quality.

[00:27:49] Yeah or at least maintenance of that quality which means you’re evaluating it on some CapEx in some capacity anyway. I think that’s really interesting. I would love a follow up question to this about do you intend to form. If you answered no because that would be an interesting thing to see if it was in the emerging area of concern. So you know if anyone from the know the CMO survey and school of business is listening you know that’s a freebie from troubling to you. We should be so fortunate. Anyway let me throw it back out. Let’s wrap up what are some of the big picture takeaways for you guys out of this.

[00:28:29] I mean to me I think it’s pretty brief. I think there I think there is some kind of dissonance going on. I read these and say these don’t do almost everything that we hit on that we’re going to invest more in social yet we’re not measuring it effectively. We’re going to invest more in marketing analytics. Yet we’re not really getting we’re not using it what’s available to us now and we’re not seeing it as super valuable. If I were a CMO reviewing this and I noted those I’d be like looking at looking in the mirror saying wait a minute what is my plan because my guess is they’re answering a lot of these questions without really thinking through what is their roadmap to get to a point where those answers make sense that you know they should be looking at that and saying I better come up with a plan to square that I’m going to be investing more in social. I better figure out what I’m going to do. I mean I have to either set my expectations were really clear. You know come with some sort of plan where I can kind of rationalize why I’m doing this and my instincts are that that that’s not actually happening. That is just kind of a little bit more of a wish and a prayer than this is a formal roadmap that I can rationalize that it was a short as I get.

[00:29:45] You’re like I’m going to be brief and then I fell asleep.

[00:29:50] I agree with most of the things that you said Tim except that you know the real stand out to me is again this disconnect. In terms of I’m willing to spend a lot more not just on social but on people who don’t work for me to do or social and I’m sending a little bit more on measurement but I’m not really deriving value or really taking advantage of it. I think social is like a thing like it’s like a pair of shoes and measurement is like your heartbeat it’s like it’s like your vital signs. It’s not something that people can easily bring in from outside. And it definitely highlights that Simos are winning. Or What’s that. Tom Davenport competing on an extra most CMO is are not competing on analytics because I wonder if if they had answered all the measurement questions oppositely if all of the social media questions would have been down in the other direction.

[00:30:49] Oh interesting. If if it’s that we’re measuring the heck out of it and we’re going to be reducing our endorsement. Yeah.

[00:30:55] Yes. Like everything we do we measure it. And I understand those numbers. And by the way I eat a lot of bullshit. We’re not going to buy any more social media. Yeah I was the last time you heard Groupon mentioned as a darling. Right. Fast Company to a billion dollars.

[00:31:11] No. A lot of cool things but they’re not where they used to be. And it’s because people were using data to realize hey we’re not getting a lot out of this investment. What are your takeaways there. So yeah I mean part of the reason why I’m such a big fan of this survey is it gives us great perspective from a totally different angle on this stuff that we do as digital analytics people and marketing analytics people and it’s great to see someone else’s point of view and try to interpret kind of what that means to us and you know and how we should do something differently or not differently based on that. And it’s fascinating and you know as much as maybe I wanted to be an alarmist or existential threat or whatever you know my key takeaway is that probably it’s not as huge a threat as I might have come in thinking but it’s really it’s really profound.

[00:32:03] I love looking at it every six months and just sort of. But Jim Jim Kane is an existential threat. Yeah well he’s from Canada. That’s the name I used to wrestle under control.

[00:32:16] So that’s my big takeaway is this is a great way to see another point of view or another facet of our awesome industry. So hey if you’re a CMO and are participating in this survey we’d love to hear from you or if you want to be a CMO someday. We’d love to hear your opinion as well. We highly recommend you download this report and take a look at it. I think there’s some really great information for you in your organization.

[00:32:43] To be fair if you’re an analyst and actually have different takeaways which is a lot more realistic we want to hear from you too.

[00:32:50] Couldn’t an analyst aspire to be a CMO when you tweeted about the podcast use hash mark existential threat tag.

[00:32:59] Yeah well we are fun to track. We don’t know.

[00:33:09] Quantitative impact here. Who’s our CFO anyway. So again Hey thanks for listening. We love the opportunity to hear from you. Of course there’s a couple of ways you can do that on our Facebook page at Facebook dot com slash analytics our and on Twitter at analytic Zour. And of course you can find us on the measure slack group. So check that out if you haven’t it again for Tim and Jim Wilson.

[00:33:42] Oh now OK fine. Actually we’ve been Betros during the quarter. Yeah I’m going to go with him. Too Watson’s public something that I do. I would vote for that ticket in 2016. That’s all I’m saying. Of course I think Tim you would have to be president given that Jim is not an American to be kind of a Dewey Louise Dreyfus kind of Veep right.

[00:34:11] You. My people have the right to arm bears and bear arms. I know. All right. So thanks for listening. We love to hear from you. Thanks again. See you next time later.

[00:34:24] Thanks for listening. And don’t forget to join the conversation on Facebook or Twitter. We welcome your comments and questions. Facebook dot com slash this now all that don’t know on Twitter.

[00:34:39] Smart guys want to fit in. I’ve made up a term and are living our lives. Don’t worry.

 

Podcast: Download | Embed

Subscribe: RSS