#017: Data Visualization and Communication with Lea Pica

The following is a straight-up machine translation. It has not been human-reviewed or human-corrected. However, we did replace the original transcription, produced in 2017, with an updated one produced using OpenAI’s WhisperX in 2025, which, trust us, is much, much better than the original. Still, we apologize on behalf of the machines for any text that winds up being incorrect, nonsensical, or offensive. We have asked the machine to do better, but it simply responds with, “I’m sorry, Dave. I’m afraid I can’t do that.”

00:00:03.69 [Announcer]: Welcome to the Digital Analytics Power Hour. Three analytics pros and the occasional guest discussing digital analytics issues of the day. Find them on Facebook at facebook.com forward slash analytics hour. And now the Digital Analytics Power Hour.

00:00:26.06 [Michael Helbling]: Hello everyone and welcome to the Digital Analytics Power Hour. This is episode 17. As we start the show, I have a question. Do you struggle to get respect? Are you afraid of being called on to present in a meeting? Are your charts and graphs a laughing stock? Well, fear not, intrepid analyst. This episode, we’re gonna teach you how to be the data vis-vis that you’ve always wanted to be. And to help us, we’ve got a special guest. I’m also joined by Tim Wilson from Web Analytics, Demystified, and Jim Cain, who is knocking them down at Napkyn and Babbage Systems.

00:01:10.98 [Jim Cain]: See the chief whiz? Data viz whiz? I’m too busy knocking them down to respond to that, Tim.

00:01:17.60 [Michael Helbling]: And I’m Michael Helbling. I lead the analytics practice at Search Discovery. All right. So our guest, we’re very excited, is Leah Pica, who everyone knows in the measure slash analytics community is a tour de force when it comes to not only data visualization, but also how to present that effectively. She actually leads people on this journey to becoming better at that. She’s presented hundreds of times across all kinds of conferences and meetings, and she’s really taken a deep dive into this space. And you can actually find more about her at her website leopika.com. And she’s actually also starting her own podcast soon, which we’re very excited about. So welcome, Leah.

00:02:03.76 [Lea Pica]: Job of the morning.

00:02:05.12 [Michael Helbling]: Great. Let’s get started. And first, let’s talk about why do people struggle in this area? And why do analysts have such a hard time with this aspect of being a great analyst? And I’ll throw that out to everybody. Since you’re our guest, why don’t you go first?

00:02:25.19 [Lea Pica]: Sure, so I think it’s all about being equipped when you start. When I think about how I started in this industry, which I sort of fell into it by accident, like I think a lot of practitioners did, no one sat me down and told me, hey, you’re going to have to go in this conference room in front of these scary people who are very important, and you’re going to have to make them care about your data and you and what you have to say. And that’s going to require things like understanding storytelling and how to break down technical jargon for lay people and how to design data and not create slides that look like vomit and how to be an inspiring motivational speaker. You know, these are all elements that go into that. No one teaches you this stuff when you become an analyst. So I think it’s just a lack of equipping the early, you know, your early career and the front lines. So that’s my perspective.

00:03:22.09 [Tim Wilson]: It seems like it’s because a lot of analysts sort of stumble into it or drawn to the data and the people who want them to do stuff are looking for people who can crunch the data. Like it’s almost a blind spot because I don’t even think the people who are hiring analysts realize how important that is, right? They’re looking for somebody who has data crunching skills. That’s the thing that’s the big mystery to them. is the data. They don’t say we need somebody who can understand the tools, pull the data, crunch the numbers, and communicate effectively because the communicate effectively seems like this soft skill that tons of people who really that’s the core part of their job and they do a shitty job of it. So it’s kind of echoing what you’re saying that it’s not even really often recognized by the people who are hiring or managing. And therefore, to expect somebody who is moving into that space, nobody is saying, go do this. You need to do this. It matters. Do it well. And so it’s pretty easy to just ignore it and not realize that there’s this massive gap in what you’re doing is your job. You’re just kind of shooting yourself in the foot.

00:04:36.51 [Jim Cain]: Is this a have to have or a nice to have? Like, would I hire someone with amazing presentation skills? for anything, like for my CFO, for our operations person, is this just anybody should learn these skills to be better? I’m not belittling it. It’s just, is this a more important skill set for a data analyst than it is for a salesperson, a financial controller, an email marketing manager?

00:05:02.94 [Lea Pica]: Well, I think it’s the perspective of the analyst. A lot of this is tying into people that want more from their careers those are the people that i’m looking to help i know there are analysts that just want to crunch numbers and they’re comfortable with that and they find a place that works for them and that’s totally fine it’s absolutely acceptable but i’m looking to help people that do want more from those careers and i can say for me personally and i don’t know if you agree that every major leap forward I’ve taken in my career has been in some part due to a presentation or a series of presentations that I did where I became more visible in my organization.

00:05:43.37 [Michael Helbling]: No, I think you make an interesting point, Leah. That is, and to your point earlier, Jim, that’s right. Like that’s probably not the primary skill that you put on the job description. But at the same time, probably every analytics job description you will see has something about an effective communicator or, you know, good written and presentation skills or ability with those skills. It’s not usually worded in a way that would actually say, hey, we’re going to measure that as we bring you in and talk about your capabilities. But we also pick up cues from people in the interview process, and if somebody just can’t even talk through what they’re good at, that hurts them in the interview process, even that. So having that confidence and, you know, I think I learned as an analyst, you’re always selling. When you present an idea, you’re pitching that idea. You want people to buy into your idea. And that’s when it became obvious to me. It’s like, oh, I really need to think about how I do that. What’s the right way to do that? If you’re not ever the guy or girl who is presenting the data, you’re just crunching the numbers and then your boss takes the data and presents it, I think you’ll get frustrated with that job in a different way because you’re not able to see the impact of your work. And I think that’s what’s really important. And so I don’t know that every single person needs to make this their top priority, but I think it’s worth everybody’s attention. And even when you’re not speaking in a presentation setting, your data is speaking when you hand it out to people and that’s something every analyst is doing.

00:07:15.76 [Tim Wilson]: Jim said presentation, and I would go with communication rather than presentation, and presentation’s one form of that. But to the different roles, and I just started kind of jotting them down, I think it is different. And I was the guy, an episode or two ago, that I think every profession thinks they’re special. But if you look at somebody coming in as a junior or middle level accountant, right, they’re working a lot with other accountants. They’re already speaking the same language, right? They’ve got balance sheets, financial statements, double entry accounting, whatever kind of accounting they’re doing. It doesn’t mean that effective communication and presentation isn’t going to hold them in good stead, but a lot of what they’re doing to turn their work product over is into somebody else who speaks a similar language. Say the same thing for marketers. If you’ve been trained in marketing, you know, to talk, you know, personas and you know, creative and messaging and the four Ps and all this stuff. So in a lot of the people you’re interacting with are doing the same thing, same thing for IT. If you’re a, front-end developer or back-end developer, a lot of what you’re producing is code that works or it doesn’t. There’s some level of saying, did you do it correctly? Where I think analysts, more often than not, we’re not trying to deliver and effectively communicate with other analysts. In order to actually have an impact, we have to effectively communicate with somebody who’s not an analyst. And I may be over simplifying or trying to pretend that everybody else gets to operate in a silo and analysts, you know, have to kind of cross over to another, another world. But I think that’s, to me, there is that distinction. It’s really hard to be successful if you can’t take this thing that you’re passionate about and you have to kind of translate it into something where somebody who’s not passionate about the data and the spreadsheets and they can still understand it and do something with it.

00:09:03.72 [Michael Helbling]: So I think we all agree. Can we have the long version, please? I think we’re all on agreement. It’s probably a good skill to have. So that’s good. So that’ll really help set us up. Otherwise, this would be this would be a really short show. We’re like, well, we pretty much disagree on this. So join us next week.

00:09:26.81 [Jim Cain]: I don’t even disagree. I mean, I’m a huge fan of talking about communication and communication skills. It’s just I was just wondering, is this a universal like employees in 2015 need to be good storytellers if they want to grow in their career? Is that a big part of it? And secondly, is if it is more applicable to analysts, which parts of communication are more important. I’m just trying to go in that direction because I know some very, very talented introverted analysts who can tell a great story with a keyboard and have no interest in telling a story in the boardroom. So I get all the credit, which is fantastic.

00:10:03.11 [Michael Helbling]: And I think it doesn’t stack up the same for every person. I think you bring up a good point, Jim, which is not everybody wants or desires to be front and center. In fact, some people would rather play a supporting role. Frankly, it’s a ton of work to get all that stuff together. So I’m really happy if somebody else wants to do it.

00:10:21.80 [Tim Wilson]: But still, there’s the danger of, I don’t want to do any of that. So I’m just going to send you the ANOVA table. And I’m going to be like, I don’t want somebody else will have to turn that into a story, right? I mean, that distinction between there’s data visualization, which is, I think, a core absolute must have, inarguable. If you’re putting 3D pie charts out, like you should just be taken off the woodshed, I don’t care how brilliant of a data scientist you are. You’re not brilliant if you’re just shooting yourself in the foot like that. I think that’s probably a must-have. It’s learnable and it’s teachable and it’s trainable. The getting to being front and center and delivering it from a presentation and communication I think maybe is an area that is not necessarily everybody has to get there.

00:11:10.05 [Michael Helbling]: You see, and I think someone could deliver an effective presentation with exploding pie charts and comic sans.

00:11:17.88 [Tim Wilson]: Well, it’s been fun. It’s been fun doing this podcast. We made it. It was a good run. 16 and a half episodes was, uh, I’m going to wrap it up then with three words.

00:11:27.89 [Jim Cain]: Wing fricking dings. That’s the font. That’s what time it is right there.

00:11:33.00 [Michael Helbling]: We’ve all built a conversion funnel with we being characters in Excel. No, but I think even if you’re not a big presenter of data, there’s still the passion that you have for the data. Like one of my favorite Ted talks of all time and everybody who’s an analyst has probably seen it. Hans, yeah, Hans Rosling’s presentation. And that guy is obviously a nerd and he is so in love with what he’s seeing and so wants to communicate. You’re swept away by his passion, even if he’s not necessarily following like you know, the Uber awesome best practices for how to deliver the best possible speech. He’s actually very effective because he’s very passionate about what he’s talking about.

00:12:17.03 [Lea Pica]: Sometimes the most passionate people without the right tools for bringing that person out can shrink into a shell of themselves when they’re put in front of these people. It’s like they’re being put in front of a firing squad and suddenly they retreat and it’s like you don’t even recognize this person. I’ve seen this happen so many times with my colleagues and my various companies. And, you know, while that guy may not be Gar Reynolds, He had practice. He prepared that there were tools he used to exude that passion and that confidence.

00:12:51.64 [Tim Wilson]: So, you know, but he also has an amazing data visualization, right? I mean, that was like literally moving bubble charts is not something you’re just stumbling across. Like his entire presentation was a brilliant data visualization that he was passionate about. Sorry, didn’t mean to catch off, but that’s what I do.

00:13:10.03 [Michael Helbling]: Yeah, and now available as part of Google charts.

00:13:13.63 [Tim Wilson]: I actually went and tried to build those in the pre like he had just gotten hired there. I tried to kind of recreate it and learned once again the my limited technical skills. That was six or seven years ago.

00:13:26.95 [Michael Helbling]: Tim did fail to do that, but I did not. So.

00:13:30.65 [Michael Helbling]: Nailed it. So nice.

00:13:33.62 [Jim Cain]: Tim and I have talked about that. I couldn’t develop a flu symptom. I mean, you guys way ahead of me. So you said earlier, Tim, some people just give the data table and then something about pie charts and then do it properly. And I think we can all agree that a good piece of analysis is never just the data table. A good piece of analysis is a strongly thought-out point of view. I mean, you’re Johnny Hypothesis. I mean, you know how to formulate a well-structured piece of work. So what we’re talking about, and maybe I’m missing the point, is to take a really good piece of work and ensure that that good piece of work is noticed and taken advantage of in the organization by presenting it appropriately. Is that fair?

00:14:15.13 [Tim Wilson]: I think so. You know, we talked about the narrative and storytelling and just before we hopped on to record, I was looking at a new client, some of their existing reports. that they’re producing. And I realized how often I go in, even for a recurring report, how little care, like if you’re producing just the weekly commerce report, it just seems so common to see this big grid of numbers. And without any attempt to say, I can’t provide a grid of numbers. I don’t know what this is going to say. It’s automated or I have to lightly, lightly touch it. So I’m not doing a full on presentation. But I’ve got to kind of put something in there. So the I is going to be drawn to something that will be interesting.

00:15:00.20 [Michael Helbling]: And that’s what hello conditional formatting.

00:15:06.82 [Tim Wilson]: That’s conditional formatting. That’s font sizes. It’s layout. It’s what do you chart? What are you not?

00:15:12.55 [Michael Helbling]: But there’s something else there because I mean, we can talk badly about data tables all day. But actually, that’s sometimes the best way to present something because that’s the way that people consume it.

00:15:22.97 [Tim Wilson]: No, I know anyone who gets a data table. They are copying before they can do dick with it. They are having to go and chart it like they can’t. You cannot consume a big data table.

00:15:34.70 [Michael Helbling]: I’m sorry, dude. It’s that is not true in every day, every day life. I’m with you. Like if I get a table, like the first thing I do is drop some trends on it so I can see what’s happening. Not everybody’s like that though.

00:15:47.76 [Tim Wilson]: I have been told that so many flipping times and then every time I’ve gone in and said well gee what if we looked at it this way instead they’re like oh my god I can finally understand it I’ve heard the bullshit excuse of the analysts saying that’s how my boss likes to see it they’re all about the numbers they want to see the big table and it’s like no because you had some totally false premise discussion with them where they gave you a list of metrics they wanted and they wanted them by month or by week. So you produced it and showed it to them and said, is this what you want? And they said, yes. And you’re like, well, that’s how my boss wants it because your boss didn’t know any better. So you can’t. Tables are good for when I need to look up a row and a column and pick out one number so I can actually triangulate on something as a lookup. The human brain can’t process. It’s a fact. Like you cannot, it’s whatever, seven to nine chunks of information. If you have 150 equally weighted, which is only a 10 by five, 10 by 15, 10 by 15 table of data, like you have to labor too hard at that.

00:16:54.25 [Lea Pica]: So I think there’s a really vicious cycle happening between analyst and marketer or stakeholder. And that is, you do whatever your stakeholder wants, but they’re not equipped with knowledge of how the human brain processes information. And then the analyst produces exactly what they want despite maybe their instincts and the stakeholder continues to not understand what’s happening. So while I kind of agree actually with Mike where there are cases and there are people where data table suits them. if it’s accompanied with other forms of more visual aspects, I think it has their place. But I think for the most part, an analyst will really set themselves apart and give themselves an edge if they learn those principles and start to help break that cycle with their stakeholders and start showing that they’re a subject matter expert in this area. That’s the biggest complaint that I get from my audience is my clients don’t get it. This is what they want.

00:18:01.97 [Tim Wilson]: I can’t convince them and you know, let’s all think of ways we can do that break that chain But I think if you don’t give them a and I don’t know if Michael if you’ve got if you’ve got kind of a an anecdote in mind to Say it I feel like when I’ve had the opportunity to say let me show you a different way and you can decide Well, I’ve never run into that.

00:18:21.28 [Michael Helbling]: We’re not all Tim Wilson, you know, right when Tim speaks people listen, you know, so No, it’s different for the rest of us on the earth.

00:18:32.73 [Tim Wilson]: No, this I mean, I mean, like some cases have to build up a year of producing the same shit until they trust me that I know what I’m talking about to say, okay, we’ll give you a little leeway to go try something different. And then and then they say, yeah, that’s great. I think it’s when you’re saying, do you like this? And if they say, yeah, because they know nothing different. And if you say, can I make it more graphical? They’re like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, they have to see it.

00:18:58.80 [Michael Helbling]: Yeah, and I’ve already expressed my preference for sure, but it really comes back to, you know, not every analyst at every point in time has the ability to kind of even start that conversation. They’re part of a moving business, right? And that business meets on Moendays and they review the numbers and by gum, they better be in this weird table that we’ve been using for the last five years.

00:19:21.11 [Tim Wilson]: Well, except, except that’s, I mean, I would give the trick I’ve tried there is you look at no report stays totally static. So I’ve done the kind of rebuild the plane in flight by saying, you know what, I’m not going to take away what you said you want. I’m going to also give you that same information and just a piece of it. And this is even if This, you don’t have to give me, you know, three months to go away. If I’m inside a company and I’ve got technically no incremental time to do anything on that report, I still, I don’t have to get permission to say, you know what, I’m going to put a second tab on here where I’ve just visualized the same information slightly differently.

00:19:58.56 [Jim Cain]: There’s a good dashboard can have multiple tabs, right?

00:20:02.17 [Michael Helbling]: Let’s stop let’s stop and regroup Because what I actually want this show to actually focus on some productive ideas as opposed to my correct one some of our semantical historical Challenges, I thought I was just giving a productive idea, but I realized we were I think you were beating a productive idea like into the dirt like a question No, we’re on to the productive idea. What’s your question? Just ask.

00:20:36.01 [Jim Cain]: So we talked about presentations, and now we’re talking about dashboards and standardized reports. Could we make a quick list just so I can wrap my head around it of the various key things that an analyst has to communicate on? I mean, we’ve got emails, we’ve got phone calls, we have formal presentations. Is that something that you guys think about? I tend to mash them up. It’s interesting to me.

00:20:57.15 [Michael Helbling]: When you guys present, do you wear your lucky shirt? Because I know I do.

00:21:02.01 [Tim Wilson]: I put pants on, usually.

00:21:04.73 [Michael Helbling]: That’s like optional if you’re telecommuting.

00:21:09.32 [Tim Wilson]: That’s true. That’s true. So I would probably rather focus on discussing the analysis where you have, to some degree, control over is it a phone call? Is it an email? Is it a presentation? But it is more of the one-time narrative presenting results than the standardized reports. I think I definitely took us off on that. I love it.

00:21:32.13 [Michael Helbling]: And so let’s dive right into that. What are some things that everybody does wrong but are easy to fix when presenting results? Let’s put one right down the middle for you, Leah. Okay. We’ve got a PowerPoint. We’re walking into a conference room. There’s going to be some executive types in there. Moest of them will have their phones ready to go the second we stumble.

00:21:56.21 [Lea Pica]: Yep.

00:21:56.77 [Michael Helbling]: So that’s what’s going to happen. What should we start to do to prepare for this situation? And what are some stumbling blocks to avoid?

00:22:04.26 [Lea Pica]: OK. So if you’re walking in and they’re already in there with their phones, you’re too late. If you have the opportunity to go early, do it. Do it as soon as you see the room is open. Get all your technical logistics nailed down. If it’s a WebEx, sign in early. Test your sound. and accept that inevitably something will go horribly wrong. I’ve never, never seen a perfect run like that, but getting closer. And I think the biggest thing is starting off strong. Sometimes people start off the meeting and they start talking like this and then And they sound like the guy from Office Space who really wanted his stapler back. You know, if you start strong, clear, strong, confident, friendly, approachable voice, maybe a smile, and stating the objective of the meeting, why are you all there? You know, how often do we see a real objective and agenda in a meeting invite? I frequently don’t see one. So starting that off really strong is important. And talking about your key findings and your recommendation, I like to put that up front sometimes. So it’s really clear how you’re setting the stage. So those are some things I would try.

00:23:15.34 [Tim Wilson]: So since you already rounded the park on that one, throw out another soft one. Say it’s an hour-long meeting. If you were going to rehearse for a full hour, that would be, if you wanted to do two run-throughs, now you’ve put two hours after you’re technically ready. Where do you stand on the rehearsing front?

00:23:31.05 [Lea Pica]: I, you know, it depends on the, you know, amount of time that you have, obviously, but I like to go through, just talk through the presentation at least two to three times before people often feel they don’t have enough time for that. And I say that when something’s important enough to you, you will make the time. You know have lunch at your desk and take fifteen twenty minutes and just talk through it that exercise can sometime help you feel so much more comfortable in your skin. That’s why people on broadway rehearse because that’s how they internalize the information.

00:24:07.02 [Michael Helbling]: Yeah, I definitely practice if it’s an important presentation. We’ll actually practice it multiple times before giving it, sometimes in front of the mirror, which is disconcerting. And you’ll find yourself like getting stopped again and again as you find spots where you have to buff out edges. And that’s really good because if you do that in practice, you’ll actually, you won’t make those same mistakes when you actually kind of step up and And, you know, do that. I would say that’s more the exception than the rule, right? It’s not, not every presentation is sort of like for your life, but the big ones definitely deserve that kind of commitment.

00:24:43.12 [Tim Wilson]: Well, I think, I mean, it’s sometimes just the first impression. So I, and maybe that’s in the consulting world and some of the nature of some of my clients, it’s the first on meeting with somebody is when I’m presenting something to them. Or maybe it’s the second time I’ve presented and those, you know, to take Maybe it is a 45 minute meeting, but I can do a run through in 15 minutes. I can run through the meat out loud, you know, talking, talking through it. I’ve also been known to be as well as call in somebody else. And again, it’s for probably for the, the bigger ones to say, let me run through this with you. Cause I want to have somebody who’s not as deep in it as I am to talk to it and say, does that make sense?

00:25:23.89 [Lea Pica]: Yeah. I have to agree. I mean, again, I think it comes down to what do you want out of that presentation as, as a career move, you know, that I can, I guess that’s how I see these opportunities, not as things to just suffer through, but as real opportunities for you. And if you take those few minutes, even if it’s a small internal meeting and just talk through your thoughts even once or twice, I think you’re going to see huge strides in that. That’s my personal belief.

00:25:51.24 [Jim Cain]: Do you guys often have stakeholder meetings where you’re formally presenting and you’re not allowed to have any kind of dialogue?

00:25:58.49 [Michael Helbling]: No. Even if there is dialogue, I want to have a plan for how I want the meeting to go and the key things I want to communicate. And I usually expect there to be dialogue because that’s my style. Like I like engaging people, but I usually still want there to be key points or objectives like that I have in my mind.

00:26:17.28 [Jim Cain]: I’ve normally got a rough plan, but I’ve never practiced a client-facing presentation ever. I’ve done the debrief with the team, and I know my stuff going in, and I know the things I want to accomplish, but I’m not saying anyone’s written it. I’m finding this very interesting.

00:26:37.03 [Michael Helbling]: Well, I think some people, Jim, are preternaturally just amazing, you know, just gifted, you know.

00:26:43.58 [Jim Cain]: I revel in my mediocrity.

00:26:45.72 [Tim Wilson]: Well, you’re coming from, I mean, interesting, I mean, coming from, we’ve talked about this before, coming from kind of a sales background where if you’ve got this, you’ve got the sales gene from a wired to one actually be listening which we haven’t really said that, but to the dialogue point, and if I go into an hour-long meeting, I’m really aiming for maybe 15 minutes of formal content. I tend to think an hour’s too long to sustain anybody’s attention. So it’s gotta be punchy and clear and delivered, and even if it’s in segments and modules, because you’ve gotta be listening. So I think, Jim, in your case, I think there’s a level of where you have a little bit of a leg up. in that you’re coming from a place where you were having to have a good narrative and listen effectively and, you know, probably do wing it better than many, many analysts.

00:27:41.95 [Jim Cain]: Yeah. And again, that wasn’t to kind of like say, I don’t need to practice. It’s just maybe it’s cause I do have those 10,000 hours Mac, Malcolm Gladwell style of just running one hour meetings before I even started to do analysis. But for me, the emphasis is really more on us and not me when I’m going into a session like that. I’m really trying to derive what I call Eureka moments where someone goes, oh, shit, got it. Wow. I’m really pushing for those, right?

00:28:14.87 [Tim Wilson]: Which is a good point. If you have them engaged, From the dialogue, once they’re talking, as long as they’re not just off because they can’t understand your data, like that’s the worst. They’re flipping ahead three slides and coming back and saying, these numbers don’t reconcile. That’s a, that’s a disaster and you’ve done many, many, many things wrong. But if they’re actually saying, huh, you know, what about this? What about that? Like you’ve, once you’ve got it to a dialogue, you have them engaged, right? They can’t be in a dialogue and checking their phone at the, at the same time.

00:28:46.59 [Jim Cain]: On the big and you said this earlier and maybe to you it’s like a thing, but it’s telling people to have an agenda for a meeting is one of those. Almost no one does it.

00:28:59.99 [Michael Helbling]: Yeah.

00:29:00.19 [Jim Cain]: And it’s something that drives me. I think I’m going to sound like Tim. You know what makes me want to go behind the woodshed with a sack full of hammers and kill a crow? I’ll tell you, it’s when people don’t have an agenda for a meeting. And it’s not like 95% of my meetings. And then you have a whole bunch of smart people in the room with high salaries. You know what that meeting cost?

00:29:18.13 [Tim Wilson]: Yeah.

00:29:18.37 [Michael Helbling]: Well, luckily, I have an agenda for this podcast. So let’s keep moving.

00:29:23.67 [Tim Wilson]: Well, but I’ve got to wait. If you have the agenda, the agenda has to actually make sense because I look at agendas where I’m like, did anybody actually look at it and say, this is going to be the dullest meeting. If you put an agenda up and say, we’re going to walk through the results from 2014 and we’re going to do this. So I think the agenda is actually a good tool to say, If I’ve only got three points on my agenda, but they’re really high impact, that actually makes sense. We’re going to do X, then Y, and then Z, because there are times where the agenda is saved from the last meeting’s agenda. And it’s anodine, and it’s not that helpful. So I actually see an agenda as a way to say, yeah, what am I really

00:30:03.15 [Jim Cain]: doing here it’s not i need an agenda check it off the box it’s what are we really trying to get done here yeah i think that could be a show in and of itself right there how to set a good meeting objective but it’s like a movie trailer man you know like like when someone’s setting up a good meeting and i’m like key things that make sense this many minutes per thing oh i really want to talk about like i’m i’m stoked to go in

00:30:29.06 [Lea Pica]: How about a title that actually tells you what the meeting’s about? I mean, I’ve just been overrun with meeting invites that say, meeting about this campaign. Well, so who cares?

00:30:43.57 [Michael Helbling]: Yeah, let’s all meet about something.

00:30:45.53 [Lea Pica]: Yeah, because I don’t have enough going on.

00:30:48.36 [Jim Cain]: So there’s another agenda is communication. Sorry, but I just really like this point because, you know, I mean, some of the I’ve seen some of the things that Leah does. And I can’t I could never get that good at doing those things. No seriously like some of the presentation stuff is really badass.

00:31:06.77 [Tim Wilson]: I thought you meant the juggling juggling kittens because that’s kind of impressive too. Yeah.

00:31:10.65 [Lea Pica]: Well, it’s like kittens only.

00:31:13.36 [Michael Helbling]: Now she’s giving away her secrets.

00:31:15.42 [Jim Cain]: All right. So I’m sitting in the podcast. You didn’t let me finish. So I’m sitting in the podcast and I’m looking at Leah’s website and I’m like, man, that looks really hard. And maybe the big takeaway for me would be, hey, man, I could write a really good agenda for my next meeting. And that’s like one of those immediate career win moments, right? To just be someone who has their shit together on a meeting. Yeah. They’re rare people. OK, Michael. Sorry. It’s good.

00:31:40.66 [Michael Helbling]: All right. So really quickly, because we’re actually running short on time, Another thing that happens all too often in meetings, especially in digital analytics, is that somebody is for sure that they know digital analytics way better than you, oh, intrepid analyst, and they are bound and determined to get a hold of this meeting and take it somewhere crazy. So how do we deal with those kinds of situations? How do you bring the room back when somebody’s riding a crazy train to Newark?

00:32:13.28 [Lea Pica]: Why did I have to be in New York, man?

00:32:14.88 [Michael Helbling]: I just whatever came out of my mouth that was as good as any other town. To Columbus. Crazy train to Columbus. There’s more rail on the East Coast, riding the Acela to Boston.

00:32:29.04 [Lea Pica]: I want to come up with like an actual martial arts move name for this, but, you know, you just have to diffuse them as quickly as you can. And I’ve, I think I’ve been that person in my early hotshot, annoying, I want to punch myself in the face days. And I’ve definitely witnessed that person. And, you know, as soon as they start poking all the holes, you know, you want to say what I would say is, you know, take a closer look at that. Why don’t we table this for a conversation we can, you know, we could take this outside. But you know, let’s let’s talk about that’s a great question. But I think it might take us off topic for this meeting, like just thinking of ways to diffuse that sort of energy and really keep the meeting on track for the people that aren’t trying to take you down.

00:33:24.46 [Tim Wilson]: Slowly is the person who’s playing that role for this entire episode. I mean, I will two things. One, if it’s people you’ve met with before, you know that person is beforehand and you’ve got to actually meet with them. You need to have present to them. one-on-one like that tends to be the person who just wants to kind of puff their chest like they need to be they need to be shown as being partners in it so whenever possible when i know there’s the person who is going to just totally derail it is i actually try to bring them in ahead of time right it’s another thing that takes time that’s becoming a Theme here but sit down with them. I’d love to get your thoughts before I go into the meeting. You know you’re saying before I go in and you completely torch my meeting and won’t shut the hell up. Why don’t we talk about this so that then I can lob them credit. You know I met with Joe. Beforehand and we kind of discussed this and this is what we came up with and then once they get some credit they often will. You know shut up the other that they’ve got your back and the other thing is I think it’s to what Leah started off with when you walk in. in your meek and timid, it’s just kind of an opening for the people who are trying to get visibility and who are maybe career oriented. And I definitely will say that it’s a hot button. I never think of this as like a career furthering thing, but that’s that’s a subject for another episode. I think it’s the people who say, oh, I’m in a big meeting. I need to show that I’m smart. I need to chime in. And part of the way I can do that is make the analyst look stupid and the more that you’ve got confidence and polish and assertiveness and the harder it’s going to be for them to do that.

00:35:10.21 [Michael Helbling]: Yeah, those are great tips. I also find sometimes an audible growl. No, I’m just kidding.

00:35:16.54 [Jim Cain]: I have a particular mother joke that works every time. There’s an old school sales trick called Feel Felt Found. And it’s one of my most favorite things to use when I have someone who’s trying to hijack a meeting. And it’s this really, really silly trick. You’re touching them? So what you do is you gently, ever so gently, now I’m kidding. So, feel felt found works like this, it’s a sentence structure. So you acknowledge how they’re feeling, you say other people have felt the same way, and then you say, and when they felt that way, they found something. So you co-opt the statement, and then you turn the statement around to basically say whatever the hell you’re gonna say in the first place. And it works really well. So Tim, I understand that you feel that dashboards should only have one page. But speaking with several of my colleagues in XYZ company who have been very successful, they found that doing this like this led to block.

00:36:17.55 [Tim Wilson]: Oh, that would be a great example. If you couldn’t close it, could you? Because it just falls down and crumbles under its own weight.

00:36:23.47 [Jim Cain]: I don’t want to embarrass in front of your friends.

00:36:26.25 [Michael Helbling]: All right. So I think these are really great tips. And actually, as we’re running short on time, we should do some wrap up and talk about some takeaways.

00:36:35.72 [Tim Wilson]: I will jump in and say that preparation and time, that is probably the toughest thing because we’re working up to the last minute to try to do the best thing possible. Our tendency is to just get as much, slice the data as many possible ways and kind of crunch the data up to the last second. And I think a lot of what has come out in this discussion is there’s a real harm to that because you may have crunched the data the 102nd way, but you actually didn’t have the composure and the prep and the confidence and the articulateness going into it. to actually deliver it effectively. So doing a little bit less of analysis in something we didn’t touch on, being prepared to follow up. If somebody says, what about the 102nd way you could have sliced it that you didn’t, to be prepared to say, I’m presenting. I’m not throwing this over the wall and I’m done. I’m presenting. I want to have a dialogue. I’m sharing this stuff with you that you guys may have good ideas too. Mentally you’re saying this I’m prepared to do a follow-up and and come back and present more or send out more But putting the time in to rehearse out loud rehearse in front of a mirror Organize your thoughts put the agenda that says oh, this is really high impact think through all of that seems to be Something that we’re not the daily structure of an analyst world does not is not conducive to that But it’s super super powerful when we find the time to do it

00:38:15.45 [Jim Cain]: So, I gotta tell you, I was a little bit concerned about the structure of this one. because I thought it was going to be kind of a strong emphasis, frankly, on things I’m not very good at.

00:38:26.64 [Tim Wilson]: Why would we do something different with episode?

00:38:29.55 [Jim Cain]: That’s a pretty broad category, Jim. Ouch. It’s time for that mother joke. Here it comes. You ready? Okay. No, but like, and again, both of you guys, like, if anybody’s seen Tim’s current presentation and Leah’s, I mean, that’s a pretty Tough brass ring to swing for when you’re sitting all day trying to do things with Excel. And I liked how today’s conversation started to move into some tactical like communication isn’t just rocking a room with 600 people in it. Communication is having a good agenda. Communication is following up. Communication is thinking about the legibility of the work that you busted your ass to put together. So I kind of liked how some of that stuff came together. And again, I know I’m dwelling on the agenda thing. Maybe it’s just something that’s been pissing me off lately. But that’s just such a key thing that’s really easy that people don’t take advantage of. So I liked how this rolled out today. It was fun.

00:39:23.52 [Lea Pica]: Yeah. And I mean, I, I second that I, what I’m trying to do is even though for me, I love the fancy slides and the big giant audience room, that’s not what the majority of the practitioners in this community are facing. And I am trying to empower them to feel like they can take on something like that, but apply it towards a much smaller audience. And it does start with, well before the presentation when you’re sending a meeting with a title that actually makes people want to go to that meeting and find out what’s going to happen. It’s going in there and being prepared and being prepared to walk through their information in a succinct fashion, but also enable a dialogue. So you guys brought that up. How important that is. And also the other thing is I wanna add is ending really strong. What do you want them to do at the end of that? Do you want them to approve a new test plan? Do you want more funding for a campaign? Give them something they should think about doing rather than just, okay, that’s it for now. See you in three months.

00:40:26.84 [Tim Wilson]: and use McKinsey titles on your slides. McKinsey titles. How did you not get the McKinsey titles? Oops, sorry.

00:40:33.86 [Michael Helbling]: We can’t do every tip in this show.

00:40:36.68 [Lea Pica]: I have to leave a way to come back.

00:40:39.29 [Michael Helbling]: And actually that’s one of my big takeaways is I think we’ve covered some really great topics, you know, the concept of thinking through, hey, what do I only need this meeting to be about? And actually putting a good agenda or an objective in the meeting invite. I tend to get really sloppy with that. So that’s great. I’m going to refix that. I guess Tim, I guess I will reconsider what I think about tables and their usefulness. and whether they could be theoretically. While I’m not a data visualization guru, I’m certainly a student of the game. And I’ll think about that a little bit. I’ll review the research. not saying I’m converted, just saying I’m willing to learn. And then I think the other thing that is a big takeaway is that there’s a lot more to take away on Leah’s website. So if you go to liapika.com, you can actually find a lot more information about the work that she does and how it can help your organization or help you. And she’s also on Twitter at liapika and on the Measures Slack. So again, this is a, I agree with what you said as well, Jim. It wasn’t immediately clear, you know, how this show would kind of work itself out, but I really like how it did. And I feel like we’ve just scratched the surface and there’s a lot more of really exciting things for people to learn. And Leah, I think you’re also getting ready to start a podcast. Can you tell us a little bit about that as well?

00:42:08.68 [Lea Pica]: I would love to, Michael. Smooth transition. So I’m launching the Present Beyond Measures show. You can subscribe on iTunes. I’ll have a page on my website. And basically, it’s a show that’s going to sit at the intersection between data visualization, presentation, and analytics. Exactly the stuff that we’re talking about today. But it’s really designed to empower anyone at any level in our community to feel like they can deliver a data presentation, an email, a phone call, a Webex, and really leave a huge mark on their team and move forward in the way that they want. In inside meetings, external industry meetings, it’s going to cover all of that. So I’m really so excited to get it off the ground.

00:42:56.62 [Jim Cain]: Last point for me. If you’re listening to this podcast and you like it, we want some more love on iTunes. So if you like the podcast, go to iTunes, give us some positive comments and I will DM you on Twitter the mother joke that we’ll win a meeting.

00:43:11.84 [Michael Helbling]: That is my trade to you. That’s the secret tip available to anyone who raises on iTunes. That’s great. Well, and again, if you’ve liked what you heard or you have questions or comments, we’d love to hear from you on our Facebook page, which is Facebook slash analytics hour or on Twitter at analytics hour and also on the measure slack group, which I believe we have update on the way to get into that if you’re not already in it. on our Facebook page as well. Thanks again, Leah, for joining us. We’re excited about the launch of your new podcast. I think just the short discussion we’ve had on this show has shown us that it’s probably going to be a phenomenal podcast. Can’t wait to listen. And for my cohost, Tim Wilson and Jim Cain, this is the Analytics Power Hour, signing off.

00:44:04.02 [Announcer]: Thanks for listening and don’t forget to join the conversation on Facebook or Twitter. We welcome your comments and questions. Facebook.com forward slash analytics hour or at analytics hour on Twitter.

00:44:18.12 [Lea Pica]: Yeah, I’m still here.

00:44:26.60 [Michael Helbling]: Are we ready?

00:44:27.20 [Tim Wilson]: You ready to go?

00:44:28.22 [Michael Helbling]: I’m ready to go.

00:44:29.32 [Tim Wilson]: I’m going to make love to the mic.

00:44:33.60 [Jim Cain]: Wow. We put the tick in analytics.

00:44:35.56 [Lea Pica]: I put the anal in analytics.

00:44:37.51 [Jim Cain]: We put the P in API. I’ve been called the Bob Ross of analytics.

00:44:44.04 [Tim Wilson]: Aw, man. Come on, my third bourbon. It’s 6 a.m. usually.

00:44:49.20 [Lea Pica]: That’s right. Yeah, what did you do?

00:44:53.21 [Tim Wilson]: Yeah, yeah. Okay, fine, I’ll go. You really want to nail the high kick.

00:44:59.52 [Lea Pica]: Yeah, you don’t want to flood the potashaw. I agree.

00:45:02.36 [Tim Wilson]: Wow, crap, now I gotta go to Google.

00:45:04.47 [Michael Helbling]: What? Is that from cats?

00:45:07.13 [Tim Wilson]: Meow!

00:45:09.09 [Jim Cain]: This dashboard has a real Corinthian leather.

00:45:17.79 [Michael Helbling]: I am not ready anymore. Sorry.

00:45:25.02 [Michael Helbling]: Editing is really great. That’s the best thing about this show.

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