#016: Digital Analytics Without a Clear Online Conversion

It’s a nasty rumor, but we heard that there are a couple of domains out there on the interwebs that are not pure play eCommerce or online lead gen sites. Why, there are government sites and nonprofit sites and CPG sites and academic institution sites and content sites and more! What is a poor digital analyst to do in the absence of a clear online conversion to measure and optimize towards? Give this less-than-two-thirds-of-an-hour episode a listen to hear our multinational and ruggedly good looking co-hosts wax eloquently (or, at least, wax) on the subject.


Episode Transcript

The following is a straight-up machine translation. It has not been human-reviewed or human-corrected. We apologize on behalf of the machines for any text that winds up being incorrect, nonsensical, or offensive. We have asked the machine to do better, but it simply responds with, “I’m sorry, Dave. I’m afraid I can’t do that.”

[00:00:25] Welcome to the digital analytical power hour. This is Episode 16.

[00:00:30] We’ve got a very interesting topic to discuss for this show. Analytics in the absence of a clear online conversion. This is something that is tricky for any analyst. So to help me pull apart this thorny topic I’ve brought along my two illustrious cohosts. There’s Jim Kane who is from Canada.

[00:00:52] My intro has gone from devil C to just from Canada.

[00:00:56] That’s right. You can mix it up. I’m excited because I’m proud of them.

[00:01:00] Is also prestigious Jim Kane and also Tim Wilson who is not from Canada. Even jets and Michael Helin. All right well guys I think all of us have run across this scenario before which is we need to make measurement matter for companies that don’t have any kind of online version of Stant even lead generation. So it’s like their website exists. Just because somebody decided that it was part of their corporate structure and now we need to figure out how to do something cool with it. Let me throw it out there. What’s our first step. How do we really get analytics in there in a juicy way.

[00:01:48] So I’m glad that this is frankly one of the first 20 episodes. I’m surprised we didn’t touch on this topic in one of the first five episodes. Because if you look at the percentage of digital analysts out there I would say 50 percent 60 percent 70 percent are people who are and large organizations where it’s real hard to pin down clearly what winning is. I mean when we talk a lot about gold definition and K.P. eyes and how hard it is to get senior stakeholders to buy into things it’s way way harder when you’re a government agency or a nonprofit that doesn’t have an online donation form or certain kinds of content sites.

[00:02:30] And there’s lots of analysts who struggle to show value because it’s hard to define winning so I’m really looking forward to covering this one. We have a decent amount of experience like where we’re located in Ottawa lots of government analysts here. We’ve worked with a number of content sites so we’ve got some cool stuff to share but I’m keen on this one and I’m hoping to learn some stuff tonight too.

[00:02:53] I think I think I’ve been the analyst who’s frustrated watching vendor demos or at conferences that are speaking to hey here’s how you do this thing and there’s just this presumption of an online conversion that is just critical to the company because it is an order or it is a lead you know it’s something that’s very tangible and it’s in it’s rare to see vendors get up or off and consultants get up and say well here’s how you do this when you’re in an environment where it’s not that easy to figure out what what success looks like for the site.

[00:03:34] Well great show.

[00:03:37] So we’re screwed.

[00:03:39] Oh I have so I’ll go I’ll jump in there and say the trick or the first not the trick. The first thing to do is start to explore what even means success for the organization. First and foremost right. At least that’s sort of been my approach which is you know okay well see what it means for this organization to be successful regardless of web right. So if I could figure that out then I can start looking for how digital snaps into that picture and then guide measurement and metrics towards that. What’s your experience as a band guys.

[00:04:21] Well for me I think one of the challenges or one of the dangers is going to what I can measure instead of trying to do that exercise.

[00:04:31] So when you’re speaking to. I absolutely buy wholeheartedly endorse and a few years ago I got this.

[00:04:39] There was a PR article and it was something like measuring using non-financial measures to measure performance or something and it talked about this concept of causal causal modeling.

[00:04:54] And I googled and tried to find it and found kind of derivatives of it but it’s a concept if you start with what is it that the organization is trying to do and you sort of start with the world to you’re living in. You know I’ve got my site in my site can only do a finite number of things. And I feel like those things were probably valuable. Now how do I actually link them. What is the causal connection between what it is that I know I can do and I can measure on my digital presence because it works for social media as well as is the Web.

[00:05:34] How can I link it if I get more people to the site. I’m a nonprofit I’m trying to spread awareness about water quality in Africa. And part of what I need is for the public to be better informed and know what the issue is over there. You know my Web site is a resource for information. If I get more people to read it then those will be people who will become more informed if they’re more informed than they will support policy initiatives that will support those efforts and ultimately I will help improve water quality in Africa. That was kind of a on the spot you know made up that I will sit and sketch out or put in a simple diagram and try to map those connections because you start to find when they’re like 7 Jones from what I can measure and what I can do to potential value that kind of makes you scratch your head and say wait a minute is this really is this really possible you know kind of validating that that model along the way through third party measurement.

[00:06:43] Hey if I’m trying to grow awareness I think that if I get more traffic or get more traffic to this area of the site and that grows awareness for now I can periodically do a study and see if that’s actually that’s actually been the case. But it fundamentally does go back to that what is the business trying to accomplish. What’s the outcome you’re trying to achieve and if you haven’t stopped and thought through what is this digital presence doing how does that relate to that and you’re kind of. Do you find yourself just counting traffic or counting registrations or counting something that may or may not actually be linkable to that business value.

[00:07:22] It’s like the Bobs from office space. So what do you do exactly. And I’ve had that conversation like. And I guess we have it with retailers a lot of the time especially for secondary conversion points but it can be a challenge with a non transactional website to figure out what the point is but there always is one you know for example we did some work with a large Canadian government agency and they had several mandates. One of the things I like to do because it can be a very hopeful kind of coaching tool is to look at the organization’s mission statement because one of the things that I find a lot is that the mission statement because some of them are garbage but a lot of mission statements are good and the organization put a shitload of time and effort and meetings and committees into clearly defining what they do. And you can take the verbs and the nouns out of someone’s mission statement and use that as the first path towards goal definition. So for example with a number of government agencies they have a two tiered goal of one of them is to be a resource for members of that organization. You know people who work for that government department to find what they need and then they also have a more primary goal of being the single point of truth for the Canadian public for all the information about what that department does. When you pull that stuff out of the mission statement you can start to get into a place where you say so.

[00:08:46] If it if someone who lives in Canada who doesn’t work for the government completes an article on your Web site is that winning and you can start to get towards it something that used to be harder. A couple of years ago given kind of the black box that most web analytics tools were again. Even two years ago the best you could do is a lot of inference that performance for the Web site with web analytics tools now and the way that you can both pull data out but also push data and you can start creating logical connections between what’s in the web analytics tool and data that lives somewhere else in the business.

[00:09:25] So if you have to you aggregated aggregated data through you’re kind of looking for correlations and patterns are you saying the kind of user level user level some talk in CRM integration you know anything where you can have a post log in experience and a CRM system.

[00:09:41] Now you’re cooking with gas right.

[00:09:43] I feel like the post log in. Hey if your site just has a active post an experience that’s like the number 2 on the list right behind the wheel after you convert to an order. Because if you’re an Internet if you’re a government agency if you’re a financial institution you know if you’re anything that’s maybe get a customer service angle.

[00:10:04] If the purpose of your site is to serve a constituency be they customers or citizens or something like that. I could see that happening and then maybe that’s part of what we’ve kind of rattled off. You’ve

[00:10:15] got government agencies as you were talking I was thinking we’ve got internet. That’s another one there are companies that have a large enough Internet that they’ve got a Web analyst for the Internet and that poor poor sap saying while we get you know one tenth of a developer a year to actually do anything on the site because hey we’re the Internet. But what’s success look like for an internet. What’s the success look like for a nonprofit which may have dual Dohner management volunteer management and actually supporting their mission. The content sites you know success for them tends to be impressions which results in if they want to sell media which just results in just horrendous user experiences. I think CPG. To me that’s the one that I deal with probably the most of it and to Michael you’re starting with what’s the goal or the goal of the business is to sell shampoo. You know okay well that’s great. Now I’m going to struggle with what is what I want to do on my site and you fall into this. All right well it’s CPG. So are you trying to do as marketers drive trial which means you’re pumping out coupons and samples which always feels like you’ve just kind of gone too.

[00:11:23] That’s what we’ve always done. The purpose of our site which isn’t really the purpose of our site that’s the purpose of our advertising spend is to drive people to somewhere where they can drive trial although insidiously I would watch that wind up getting to where we’re building our CRM so we just count the registration and we completely ignore the post registration process of actually getting the coupon printing the coupon using the coupon. So we sort of forget that it’s supposed to be about trial and decided it’s again about just getting somebody to fill out a registration that is analogous to the I’m going to do a great Web and our and the web in our be utter shit because all the people who are doing the Web are care about whether you fill it out the the Legion form to register for the weapon are and then you’ve given them 95 percent of the value that they wanted. So that was like I think that just compressed like seven rants into one non breathable moment.

[00:12:17] Well done the bus rant played a little yesterday from Tim Wilson. What a shame that rant hold. Before you go there’s one thing else I want to throw out there. Are flames soaked gas cans if you will. No wait a Molotov cocktail of in sight. The other thing I have found and I wonder if you guys see this. Is that not only is there sort of a challenge with kind of applying a process for measurement as couple to the business goals or whatever. But there’s also a fair amount of really not good thinking about Web site measurement that you have to peel back first. So usually have like here’s our KPI and they’re all like really not good. And you’ve got to like do a lot of work to get those off of there before you can really dig into what really is starting to matter. I don’t know how you guys seen that too. Or am I just overly pessimistic.

[00:13:17] And. And there’s I think there’s two reasons The first one is that when you can’t directly tie a dollar value to something it’s perceived value is much lower. So it’s hard to get a director of digital for a large property that doesn’t necessarily have a dollar value driven conversion point. You know it tends to be treated like like with some of the CPG stuff is kind of just something that exists for our brand. So it’s hard to get people to take care at all about anything. The second thing and so I’ve spoken to several large post secondary education psyllids in the U.S. and they are actually taking the Web much much more seriously.

[00:13:54] But if you look at a big college or university they don’t have one primary goal. They actually have three of them and they’re equally important and they’re completely different. So one of them is to be a knowledge base for existing students. Where’s the cafeteria. Is my class. You know I want to join the glee club or whatever Americans do for fun. The second one is for prospective students. So you know we need to be out there getting people to apply to this school and that’s equally as important or maybe more important than being a resource. And the third one that I had never thought of until it was brought up several times is alumni donations and generating money from alumni is extremely important to big American schools. And the Web site is one of the primary ways that they do that.

[00:14:44] So the three things that literally had nothing to do with each other they take all of the students and all that whereas my class where the cafeteria they direct them all to a room. This has been my experience they direct them all they all go to the same room that’s a phone bank where they’ve been tell them to get whatever they want to their class to the captain Syria whatever they just need to call 27 alumni and ask them for money. Because I’m I’m convinced with how often my phone rings. That must be what the entire student body mobilized to do to take money from me.

[00:15:12] But in that case don’t you wind up having separate sites. The challenge becomes how does my home page direct people to the experience.

[00:15:21] Because they’re so siloed. I mean I look at a philanthropic foundation that I work with where they’ve got kind of a whole grantee area and you know what that is post like and that is that people who are looking to apply for grants are going to go and they’re going to log in and then they are in that portal and having the grantee or potential grantee experience. There’s a whole other section of the site that is saying all the output of that research we want to share that with the world. And they basically wind up saying we’ve got a couple of different sites and you can kind of carve that off and say What are those different goals. I agree.

[00:15:58] It already introduces a nuance. It’s not. We’re trying to drive profit like that which is what retailers are and retailers may struggle struggle with the you know the omni channel world but they won’t have for profit businesses are we want to make more money buying our so they can kind of have a singular goal whereas a lot of what we’re bringing out to government agencies the universities can kind of split into where they’ve got a couple of almost unrelated goals different constituencies are serving to take it further.

[00:16:32] I mean again if the business ever ran this way would be a nightmare. But in a large university every department tends to own their own website or their own area of the website. So the alumni group has the alumni group but the history team or the humanities department will own a subset of the Web site. They might even have their own and they still call them this webmaster or web mistress. And they compete with all the other Web masters and mistresses for dev time and access to the CNS so you know there’s there’s more people working on that Web site than there might be for a large retailer. None of them are in lockstep. None of them have clearly defined goals. It makes it very hard to go in and even help create alignment on goals let alone do analysis. So I guess now that I’m talking about it out loud some organizations that don’t have clearly defined Web goals may have similar problems internally which makes it even harder to get going with data.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:34] Do you work if universities get exam got to know a couple of the analysts that are here in Columbus affiliated with Ohio State they have talked to them about some of those challenges or even specific subsets of Ohio State. You have different schools and they have historically operated as somewhat.

[00:17:53] I mean you know right away they’ve got their own PNL basically you know the answer to the president whatever the other sort of board of regents around understand the corporate hierarchy of universities.

[00:18:05] But in a lot of ways you know it’s the dean and everything flows down. And so when you go to that maybe makes sense in a physical space that you’ve got these different physical areas.

[00:18:17] So the school of architecture is somewhat self-contained but when it comes to the digital world it’s kind of needs to be a little bit more of an integrated experience. And I don’t know how often those universities wind up saying And now we have a Web analyst who actually anybody is asking or expecting anything out of they just kind of live in a world of chaotic academia.

[00:18:42] Yeah which is great because that’s exactly what an analyst wants you know just sort of completely theoretical everything right. No I think you make a pretty good point. And what ways do we. Do you dig in to a situation like this what other any analysis methods that you promote or think are good for an analyst in this position. What kinds of analysis would do what would you think would be good for them to do.

[00:19:11] I think the number one thing it can do is help figure out how massive the misalignment is between why people internally think the current people are coming to the site and the reality of why visitors are coming to the site. Now you know CPG is a simple one. It’s why are people going to CPG sites. They’re looking for coupons. I’m pretty sure I have rattled that off on at least a couple of prior episodes but it’s just a fact for your run of the mill selling cereal soda and shampoo. So and Kleenex people were looking for coupons internally often people think Oh they’re coming to learn about our wonderful brand story because we ran this brand advertising campaign where they’re going on the site and where they’re coming from tend to be kind of weak proxies in a lot of times it’s you better be better through a survey up and ask them the question why are you coming. Why are you here and just trying to get the conversation to. You can’t just make people have a different intention when they arrive on the site. If the people who are coming are looking for x and you’re building a site to do Y. Something has to give that site. No amount of measurement is going to make that site successful. There needs to be some clearly and if it can be data articulated you know with facts. You have a gross misalignment about why you wish and hope people are coming to the site and what you wish they were trying to accomplish and what they’re coming when they arrive on the site they’re trying to accomplish.

[00:20:52] And to me that’s a struggle with that junior and all that they can struggle to do that because that is kind of a strategy and a delicate you know sensitive communication. But trying to tease out what is it you hope people are doing on the site. Now let’s talk about what they actually are and get that base level.

[00:21:18] Well I’m going I see a lot to that big gap again. Non commerce organizations don’t tend to go too much farther past visits and visits by marketing campaign.

[00:21:31] But you know on site they’re all about time on site. So with time on the site from e-mail this week.

[00:21:38] You know how many more people showed up from our partners than did this time last year. But they don’t make it too far past you know a few interesting stats about our marketing campaigns. And one thing that I find tends to be a standard at least as something that can be relatively easily instrumented is content consumption is most large organizations that don’t have a shopping cart have some kind of information and ideally information they were fresh off them. That is a big part of their mandate to get out into the world. If it’s a PDAF download it’s pretty straightforward to say did someone download the PTF in which PTF was it and if it’s an article you know there’s a few tips and tricks for articles. If it’s a long scrolling article you can build analytics inventing for the last scroll of the article so you could say how many people started and how many people finished Ishy any edition but you could see how many people made it to the end of the article. If it’s a multi page article you could say how many people navigated to the last page of the article so you can actually go from kind of a basic engagement funnel someone came in from that e-mail and then they went to this article.

[00:22:56] We can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that they finished it and they did that three times that’s a huge move forward after the multi-page articles ever exist for any reason other than selling advertising and pumping up your impressions that you strip Simmie serious questions.

[00:23:15] I know like drudgery. Yes. Tim of course it enhances the usability of the article.

[00:23:22] Maybe we get the answer that answers the measurability right.

[00:23:30] I mean that’s that’s mean that I die it happens about once to twice a year that somebody comes up with a new Xchange that will improve the measurement. And I I tend to I just dial a bit inside every time somebody says let’s change this so we can measure it. I’m like No you get I take imperfect measurement any day do not negatively impact counteracting the with the user. Absolutely.

[00:23:58] If it’s good enough for BuzzFeed it’s good enough for me. That’s what I say to the Canadian government.

[00:24:04] I mean I like that. I do feel like I should throw in because it’s one I don’t quite get out. I don’t quite. He calls it the spoon example. Adam Greco so one of the oddest mystified senior partners and he talks about the spoon and it’s a matrix reference. I like the Matrix but I don’t quite get the Neo and the spoon and then go watch the scene again. But he says the question is imagine a world where our site doesn’t exist. We take our site off and you need to go in and now pitch why we’re creating a Web site. Why do we need a website. And I actually think that’s a very clear and simple way to frame it up. You can’t walk into if you’ve got you know 20000 pages on your website. And we’re getting a ton of traffic. You don’t want to walk into the V.P. of marketing and say hey I have this thought experiment why don’t we have a website but is an analyst to actually sit back and think through really why what are the like the vectors of value that we’re delivering that are contributing towards the overall the business.

[00:25:15] The organization’s mission the goals for the company. Where does the site fit in that. Because it’s true that many sites get created because there wasn’t a site you had to buy a domain to protect your and then you better put something up there and it started out as brochure ware and is evolved for 15 years and you’ve kind of lost some of that some of that clarity and it’s to me it’s one of the fun things about being an analyst is getting to try to really ponder that and sort of question any sort of assumptions well it’s all about having people stay on the site for a long time like really is that what it’s all about is vectors of value a Wilson ism.

[00:26:00] I don’t know where that came from. I think it’s just kind of that could be the title of our first book. It’s my affinity for alliteration.

[00:26:07] How’s that value in digital data like James Wilson. So what about scoring models.

[00:26:16] So a lot of times in the absence of an online conversion you’ll see organisations Shefter Wonham or look at some sort of scoring model. What’s your opinion on those or how would you apply those in this context.

[00:26:30] Can you elaborate a little bit more.

[00:26:32] I think I know what you mean but I don’t think often attention so some sort of model that scores digital behaviour gives some kind of a point to this action or that action and adds it up and then gives way to a visitor who has higher scores than that one based on. But

[00:26:50] whatever it is we’re trying to accomplish what percentage of what was the volume of visitors who exceeded score threshold x some of it. Yeah exactly. So those kind of in a sense kind of Jason Burby were when he was zazz as really Saffir out of announced that is possible now I think still do it.

[00:27:10] I know you Talian Souths XYZ. OK I got Zardes like Bob’s and maybe I’m sorry.

[00:27:16] I think he is the is the kind of Coyner and champion of let’s sign every action a a value and it’s more assigning a a relative value action which I think was often a sign of dollar value but you’re assigning a dollar value in the absence of being able to quantify if that’s real and so you have to be really careful to tell people that know this is a real Bauers this is kind of just a relative exercise.

[00:27:44] I think that’s a slippery slope.

[00:27:45] But conceptually I think going through what are all the things that we’re letting people do on our site and assigning a point system to have that exercise of Yeah I’m going to assign points because I’m going to sit back and think about downloading a PDA means X which is great. Completing a video means Y which may be a great thing. I know they’ve consumed the whole video just arriving on the site and bouncing you know points right if you’re on one page maybe you get nothing.

[00:28:16] Then with that you can start to to to both look at scores if you’re tying into a CRM your Buhr scoring these people and figure out who the most violent people are and where they’re coming from and what they’re doing.

[00:28:28] But then there’s also a way to look at your to start having a conversion what percentage of our visitors are exceeding scoring threshold X and I can say I have tried that several times and it seems simple and obvious.

[00:28:47] I actually brought a white paper years ago back when I was working with ELLICK Well worldwide about two dimensional lead scoring at a behavioral profile and talked about a third dimension and it all seemed like really clear and getting companies to embrace it.

[00:29:06] It’s like a level of it’s like one step too far for them for the rifle to go on. But I fundamentally think that’s a great way to look at it because it forces some sort of introspection about what people what you’re offering and trying to guide people to do on your side and how successful you are getting them to do that.

[00:29:24] Were not at all bullshit. A white paper by Timothy Wilson had a gym where you’re how you’re laughing so hard on that company. There’s no need to defend the Canadians. There’s ways that Tirana’s out.

[00:29:42] OK there’s ways to use products like that poorly but I think there’s some real value in those too. I just it’s weird now to defend marketing automation or something anyways.

[00:29:55] So the reason that it’s something that always kind of drives me nuts is that organizations that have invested I have yet to meet an organization that’s invested heavily in Marchetto or an eloquent or a similar tool who is even remotely winning with it. They it’s almost like heat mapping and user video capture tools. They are theoretically powerful or time management or web analytics. Let’s be honest you know I mean we we all know we don’t actually do anything. We agreed on that like 15 episodes ago. But you know someone goes in even if they use a consultant they set up a lead scoring tool and they decide that that is how the world is structured and they almost never become a more effective more efficient marketing organization. Through anything those tools do. And that’s my issue with them. You know can you win with Eligor or Marchetto. Probably have I seen anybody do it. Nope. Does it create a whole shitload of noise that I have to deal with when we work with them later. Every time there is a call for a future digital power our guess is too.

[00:31:08] I actually feel like there are B2B B2B companies out there that are winning with it and if there is somebody who actually listens to this podcast so their analytics world and say Hell yeah we actually are winning with a lead scoring lead nurturing market automation.

[00:31:26] That’s key to what we’re doing. Please contact us because I think I would actually be a fantastic episode.

[00:31:34] Jim Kane Dunk Tank episode.

[00:31:37] Yeah because we need an episode where Jim gets beat up on. Yeah we haven’t told any of those yet. The first 15 days.

[00:31:43] The guy is bulletproof. What can we do. The Teflon Don of measurement keeps coming back. All right so I’d love to hear that story too. And seriously if someone is hearing this and has a great example of one of those tools then he could get through your PR department to allow you to.

[00:32:02] Speak with. Feedback can be great if you guys get practitioners to be great practitioners were allowed to remove the muzzle and speak on a podcast.

[00:32:12] Oh snap.

[00:32:13] So now is a good time for us to wrap up before we alienate anyone who is not on the show. So guys what are your takeaways from the conversation tonight.

[00:32:25] So again this is the show I thought it was going to be at the beginning. I enjoyed talking on commerce conversions. We all had some good examples and I think the big the big things that I shared that I think are worth re mentioning are that a mission statement is an interesting tool to use when trying to define goal conversion for and on Congress business. I think content consumption and properly instrumenting successful content consumption.

[00:32:55] Is a very good way to show the effectiveness of a website that is a non commerce or not we generation Web site I think that you’re if you’re an analyst in that kind of business to a large extent you probably have your work cut out for you. Because before you can do anything cool with data you have a lot of culture to change and you have a lot of people to align before you can get going.

[00:33:19] So I’ll throw in two things. One really just hit me with with Jim’s last comment. There’s kind of thinking is as analysts go in and are considering jobs that the organizations I’ve worked with actually do have a truly noble mission. They’re not trying to push cheap plastic crap you know that nobody needs but everybody wants you know if you actually want to have a job where you can maintain your soul. A lot of times that I think is going to work for companies that may have a lot of these sorts of struggles so I wonder about going into those interviewing and the job interview process and being a little bit of the what are your goals what do you expect your website to do.

[00:34:02] I think is kind of an intriguing thought that hey if you’re going in if you’re moving from retail to a government agency or moving from a b to b Legion site to a nonprofit go in with your eyes wide open and recognize that as Jim said there’s probably a degree of cultural change in order to do analytics effectively. It’s

[00:34:23] kind of a little bit of a job.

[00:34:24] The second thing for me is that I’ve made sort of a preliminary little list before we jumped on here about there are a handful of different types of non online conversion sites and that list just got longer. As we discuss this. So in a sense I feel like we set up a false premise and that we said there are sites that have online conversions and then all sites that have don’t have online conversions and a little bit of an ah was are fundamentally different types of sites that don’t have online conversions and there may be very different ways to approach what you do with measurement.

[00:35:04] Michael you got any thoughts. Yes I do.

[00:35:07] It is definitely challenging. I think there’s cultural aspects and I think that was one thing as I was were talking to night and just the complexity of applying digital measurement to a success that may happen somewhere far far away in the organization. Pretty challenging stuff but it’s definitely doable.

[00:35:28] Well what a great show. Thanks again to Tim Wilson and Jim Kane my cohosts. We’d love to hear from you if you are listening to this show. Check us out on Facebook or on Twitter or on the measure slack and love to talk to you about your experiences with this especially open call for anyone who’s really knocking down the park with marketing automation tools in a 9 lead gen or non e-commerce environment. So you could be a guest on this show if you would like to step forward.

[00:36:04] We’d love to have you potentially so reach out to us. And of course keep on measuring for Tim Wilson. Jim Kane This is Michael humbling.

[00:36:19] Thanks for listening. And don’t forget to join the conversation on Facebook or Twitter. We welcome your comments and questions Facebook dot com slash. I don’t know at all. I don’t think on Twitter. Smart guys want to fit in so I made up a little. Bit. Of. Work.

[00:36:41] On the scrap metal section. Like didn’t hurt John. Likes governance. Cut that part out. How did this suddenly become about that when I was giving you guys props like that’s the thing here like it was pretty dick ish actually.

[00:37:01] Yeah I wouldn’t have take that back then. It was Tim’s fault. Cut that part out. I agree with Tim if you want to be on the show you should.

[00:37:14] Or whatever it was you said earlier. And then just man up. This is not a topic that I have a lot of knowledge on. Cut that part out. And restart the whole fucking thing that probably. Got that far out. Just kidding talking about taking your laptop and we. Shall.

[00:37:41] Cut that part out. Kim. You know you’ve been waiting to.

[00:37:53] Get a little exposure there. Cut that part out. I’ll be back later.


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