Remember back when the global economy was booming and analysts were both in the sexiest job of the century and on the favorable side of the supply-demand curve for talent? Those were the days! On this episode, we sat down with Ollie Darmon from Canva to get his perspective, as an in-house recruiter, on what candidates can and should do to not only get in the door, but to actually close the deal and get hired.
Ideas and Tips Mentioned in the Show
- Ollie Darmon
- Aubrey Blanche
- (Book) Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
- Eye of the Tiger
- The Data-Driven CV (NickStrayer.me)
- (Podcast) How I Built This: reCAPTCHA and Duolingo: Luis von Ahn
- (Podcast) The Last Archive Episode 03: The Invisible Lady
- JOIN Program
- Measure Slack
0:00:04 Announcer: Welcome to the Digital Analytics Power Hour. Tim, Michael, Moe, and the occasional guest discussing digital analytics issues of the day. Find them on Facebook at facebook.com/analyticshour and their website analyticshour.io. And now, the Digital Analytics Power Hour.
0:00:27 Michael Helbling: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Digital Analytics Power Hour. This is episode 144. You know, that whole getting a job thing? In the past few months, it’s taken on a somewhat different tone for many. Most of the time, those of us fortunate enough to be in the data and analytics space have usually been able to be pretty lackadaisical about the process. I know that I’ve gone into the process a little bit laissez faire and I wanna do a good job, but since our industry is so in-demand, you can easily be lolled into a bit of a diva mentality when it comes to interviews. Hey, Tim, you always over-prepare for everything. Is that true of job applications too?
0:01:11 Tim Wilson: Oh wait, what are we talking about?
0:01:16 MH: Getting a job in data.
0:01:17 TW: Oh yeah, I forgot to prepare.
0:01:20 MH: Very nice. Very nice. Way to attempt to be counter to form. Very, very well done. Okay, Moe. What about you? Do you have a rider attached to your CV demanding to be treated a certain way when you deign to be employed by a company?
0:01:39 Moe Kiss: Oh wow. I would actually say I’m the opposite. I feel like I’m a Tim when it comes to jobs where I… Like my interviews and resumes is the time I super over-prepare like a crazy nutter.
0:01:51 MH: Yeah, I feel like sometimes, impostor syndrome can be a benefit a little bit to force you to prepare. Anyway, now we’re living in sort of what we’ll call the new normal a little bit. It’s time we all paid a bit more attention and sharpen your pencils a bit, if we haven’t done it before. So if you’re on the job hunt now, this show is for you. And maybe if you’re gonna be on the job hunt in the future, there’s some things that you definitely wanna pick up from the episode. Everyone who’s listening, if you’re in the analytics industry, stay with us, we need you in the industry. Okay, so we needed a guest and somebody who lives this stuff every day, so we found Ollie Darmon, he is a recruitment lead at Canva, and he’s also held other recruitment roles at companies like Google. And today, he is our guest. Welcome to the show, Ollie.
0:02:45 Ollie Darmon: Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
0:02:48 TW: Are you shocked by the preparation that Moe said she does, and you’re looking at kind of the behind the scenes record saying that is that reflected at all in our system.
0:02:56 MH: Well, I think we can do a deep dive on. What our listeners need to know is that Moe is really being very transparent with this episode because she worked with Ollie, I believe, when she came to Canva, so we may get some personal stories, but before we dive into depths…
0:03:12 TW: We’re not gonna judge the credibility of Ollie in this.
0:03:16 OD: Go go Moe, you rule.
0:03:19 MH: Yeah, so before we get into Moe’s specific experience and maybe some points and tips on what she could have done better in the process, let’s first start, Ollie, just give… People don’t know who actually what a recruiter does. So I think maybe we could just start with, people have connotations, like if they work with a recruiter they really like, that is a good recruiter, but generally speaking, these are just an annoying group of people that try to connect with me on LinkedIn to pitch me jobs that I don’t actually want. So what is actually going on?
0:03:52 TW: Well, and there are in-house recruiters and external recruiters. And any distinctions that you’re able to make and describe, all the better, ’cause I am equally in the dark.
0:04:03 OD: I think agency recruiters historically got a bad name, I would say. I think internal recruiters, it’s quite different. They are similar jobs but two different types of jobs, really. The best way to explain it… Just out of interest, what’s your observation of recruiters when you’ve used them?
0:04:19 TW: I’ve had various experiences. I’ve had used car salesman type of experiences, and I’ve had really positive ones. I’ve only worked with a recruiter once on one job ever in my life. Other ones came directly through my network, but I’m very selective about recruiters that I work with or I talk to, or that I recommend others to talk to.
0:04:41 MH: The external recruiters, some of the messages I get where I’m like, “This is you are clearly just praying and praying and I had to… You sucked me in because this is… I have not been a technical writer in close to two decades, I don’t think I’m interested in that position.” And kind of the trying to tease… The used car salesman on the external recruiters, I’ve had phenomenal experiences with internal recruiters once I’m actually in the kind of relationship and considering, I don’t know that I’ve had a negative experience with any of them.
0:05:13 MK: I tend to keep them really close. Even external recruiters, I think they played a really good part in adding to my network and introducing me to other people. Internal recruiters, I’ve always had a really amazing experience with. I do get the… You get the blast on LinkedIn, which I’m pretty… I just kinda shut down. But I’ve always had really good experiences. But yeah, maybe it’s ’cause we’re this sexy new job of our century or whatever it is.
0:05:44 OD: But I think that’s bad luck. I would say that I’ve bad luck… Bad experiences with recruiters, being a recruiter, everyone trying to recruit me to other roles, so yeah, it’s funny sometimes. It’s something that…
0:05:55 MH: I had never thought about a recruiter going through the job hiring process. That’s…
0:06:00 TW: Exactly.
0:06:00 OD: Inception.
0:06:00 MH: Yeah.
0:06:03 OD: Yeah, so I think there’s various forms, probably with any job, like you probably get really good sales people, and you get not so good sales people. So I think the same with recruitment, and I’d say agency recruitment is a little bit differently… Different to internal recruitment in the sense that obviously, they’re not embedded in a role in a company whereas what I’ve loved about being in internal recruitment is you live and breathe the values, you’re part of that company, and you’re really invested in finding the best people for that company. And I think it’s a very different type of role, and that you… I’m just really embedded with what Canva are doing when it comes to just the business, the business model, revenue drivers, all this different type of stuff. And yeah, I really enjoy talking to that, to candidates, and talking to the culture and the values and actually seeing if people are aligned in that sense, but…
0:06:53 MK: Do you feel that people treat you differently when you are an internal recruiter versus an agency?
0:07:00 OD: Yeah, absolutely. To be fair, I’ve only been an agency… I started in an agency in my career, and that was… What was it, nine years ago, 10 years ago now. And then I did two years in agency and I went straight into the in-house role at Google. So that two years was tough. I remember coming out… I was straight out of university. My role was hiring accountants straight from practice, so straight from generally like the big four, like your PwCs, EYs, these kind of companies. And I would get a list of candidates, names and phone numbers and the company where they were at, and I have to cold call them. Yeah, that was an interesting start, too. And you would get, fuck you, go away. You’d have a lot of people screaming at you down the phone, so it’s quite a tough kind of introduction to recruitment, I would say, but it was… Makes you a little bit more resilient and grittier. As I guess the best thing to say for it.
0:07:52 MK: So how has that changed to now? How do you look… Let’s say we need to fill a role for, I don’t know, some type of senior engineer, or… How do you now find candidates, ’cause someone doesn’t give you a list anymore, I presume.
0:08:06 OD: No. Yeah, yeah, and this is pre-LinkedIn, really. Or LinkedIn was only just coming through at this time, so yeah, you got tools like LinkedIn or Github or a lot of different kind of websites and tools that you can use. So it’s a very different approach, I would say. You have to be… Well, I’m very strategic in who I reach out to, in my reach out messages. And what I’ll put in those. I try to tailor everything that I send to candidates, so it’s a very different approach than just say, you’re like cold calling from a list.
0:08:38 MK: So when you say tailor it, what do you mean by that?
0:08:40 OD: So say in a profile, I know that say, they went to… Used to work at XYZ company. Or you went to MIT, I’ll be like, “Hey, I can see that you went to MIT and you worked for this here and here and here. I think that’s really interesting for this role because we’re doing X, Y and Z, would you like to chat?” So a little bit more personal rather than some of these reach-outs that you just mentioned your getting, which are kinda spray and pray kind of approaches.
0:09:06 MH: What is the balance? I guess that’s one of those when it comes to resumes that are submitted through… That come in… Like inbound versus outbound, reach out. I know, especially massive companies, it often feels like it’s a super cumbersome process and you put it in and then you have no idea if it’s actually gonna get reviewed or if it’s gonna get a shot, which means I’ve always heard and always kind of done the, “We’ll find somebody inside who can go and find the record,” even if they say, “You have to come in through that system,” but I guess generally the… Canva’s a… It’s a real brand. It’s not, people have heard of Canva and it’s highly regarded, I think. So presumably, you have people who are just applying for jobs, and so where do you as a recruiter, are you on both sides of that, that you’re looking at what’s flowing through as applications, and then you’re also trying to drive people into the candidate pool?
0:10:05 OD: I’ve… Yeah, you explain it so good. And you can get really amazing candidates from both channels, like we’ve had some amazing… Like Moe, for example. We’ve had some amazing candidates that have come through that have applied versus having to actually reach out and practically go find people. So it’s definitely a bit of a mix.
0:10:23 MK: Ollie, I don’t know if I ever told you, though. I feel so bad for Robby, ’cause Robbie and I talked about me applying for a job at Canva for three years. And I felt so bad for heckling him so many times and then not applying. I’d always step back at the last minute, and then I felt really bad ’cause then I like YOLO applied one day, and he didn’t get the referral bonus, and I felt like a right arsehole.
0:10:47 OD: Oh no. Did you tell me that at the time?
0:10:50 MK: I don’t think so.
0:10:51 OD: I feel bad. Maybe I should give him.
0:10:53 MK: Oh, well. I was gonna ask though, on referral bonuses, or referral programs in general, ’cause most big tech companies have that now. Yeah, I guess I’m curious about the breakdown of hire some kind of referrals versus they apply themselves versus you guys seeking it out. And is there a concern with referrals that you’re going to reduce the diversity of the pool of candidates, so we’re like, How do you, I guess, manage that?
0:11:22 OD: Yeah, 100%. On the diversity piece, people generally refer people that are like them, and that’s something that we’ve definitely noticed in the past, that you lose a lot of diversity when you’re just hiring from referrals. So typically, I think industry standard from referrals for most companies would be your total pool of hires would be around 30%. So Canva, we’re a little bit lower than that. Back at Moe’s place, I think we’re around like 33% of our total hires were referrals, which is pretty high. And it does, it’s like, it massively reduces diversity, what we’ve noticed anyway, so you have to, when it comes to diversity, like we don’t have any targets or anything like that in place, and I don’t believe that you should, but you do wanna have a kind of healthy pool of different people from wherever it’s kind of diversity of background, diversity of thoughts, etcetera, etcetera.
0:12:15 MH: So Ollie, when someone does apply at a company, how is it best for them to go… As they go through the process, how is it best for them to apply? ‘Cause there’s lots of different ways, right? So you could go through a recruiter, you could go through a referral, you could go directly into the website. Talk a little bit about the efficacy of those approaches, ’cause I think one of the other things I’d love for people to get out of this is some practical tips on, “Okay, if I wanted to apply at a company, how should I spend my time preparing for that application? Should I just go straight in on LinkedIn, or should I go and find a network person to go find a way for me to get in that way?”
0:12:52 MK: Well, ’cause I also tell people that… When friends say, “Oh, I just applied via the LinkedIn button,” I always slap them over the knuckles being like, “That is a laziest way to apply for a job, because you’re not tailoring your LinkedIn or your cover letter or your message.” And so I’m really curious to hear Ollie’s perspective on that.
0:13:11 OD: Yeah, I would agree. I find that it is a little bit lazy when candidates are just applying via that LinkedIn button or even a lot of like… I see quite a few cases where candidates will just PDF their LinkedIn profile and apply via that. I get it, it’s kind of like… And LinkedIn has that option, where you can actually PDF your profile, so I kinda get it in a way, but…
0:13:31 TW: Yeah, as a hiring manager, I’ve seen plenty of LinkedIn resumes. People don’t even have a resume. They just send you a PDF of their LinkedIn profile. And the thing is, it’s like they still get jobs because analytics historically has been so talent poor that you need that, but I also wanna be careful ’cause it’s sort of like, “Okay, what if someone has no other way in? What if I don’t know anybody at this company?”
0:13:56 MK: But you don’t have to. I think it’s about the effort.
0:14:00 TW: Well, then, why is it lazy to apply on LinkedIn? So that’s just what I wanna understand. I understand how it’s perceived that way, I just… I’m thinking about the person who may not have any other alternatives, they’re just being perceived as lazy because that’s the way they went in.
0:14:16 OD: You can definitely apply via LinkedIn, but tailor your application. Tailor it in a sense that you have a tailored resume that speaks to the role, and maybe even Canva, have a cover letter, I think a cover letter goes a long way, and that’s a dying… Very much a dying thing that people don’t do cover letters anymore. And I think like I have a lot of hiring managers at Canva that actually want to see cover letters, and the like. I’ve got one hiring manager, she always asks, have they got a cover letter, have they got a tailored cover letter, and wants to see someone’s passion and interest for Canva. Yeah, people don’t realize that, and I think that’s definitely dying.
0:14:51 MH: But it does seem like there are… And I’m thinking of large financial institutions, ones that are just like the… What is the job? Tallio? Was that the one that a ton of companies have used for their… Like it does seem like there are cases where their platforms that are so by the book, sometimes they may say, upload your resume and we’ll translate it into… Do they always have the opportunity to put in a descriptive note as to why I’m applying for this job? It seems like my impression was that there are cases where the system is set up such that it kind of distils everything down to ASCII text.
0:15:33 MK: I’ve never not been able to add a cover letter. And I remember the only times that I’ve been really lazy about an application, you know those times in your life when you’re trying to either change careers or do something different and you are throwing out like hundreds of resumes within a week, that’s the only time I’ve been lazy. But generally, if you’re job hunting, and my thing is always, and this is probably why I’m so crazy about how much prep I put in, by the time I am ready to make a move, I’ve picked two or three companies that I really wanna go to, and that’s it. And that’s why I have my heart set normally on one, and so why wouldn’t you have a specific resume or a specific letter? And even the key, which I actually learned in government, which I love, is look at the job description and look at the words they use, and use those words and put them in your resume and put them in your cover letter, because it shows that you literally are matching to that job description.
0:16:36 OD: Yeah, absolutely. Even titles, like simple things, like just I’ll… Match your title, your job description, your title in your resume to the actual job, ’cause if you think about recruiters, when they’re reviewing, like recruiters are generally reviewing thousands of resumes a week sometimes. It’s crazy, the amount of applications we get at Canva anyway. And they’re obviously, they’re not gonna spend 10 minutes on each resume, they’re gonna spend a certain amount of time, so just try and alter your resume that’s just gonna easily match and kind of catch their eye would be my suggestion.
0:17:10 MH: Yeah, one good tip I’ve heard from people is take your resume and put it in a word cloud generator, so you can actually see the density of keywords against the job description.
0:17:20 TW: Oh I thought you were gonna say, then send in the word cloud.
0:17:23 MH: Yeah, to be like… analytics. Data.
0:17:26 MK: Well, for a data job, that actually would be pretty good.
0:17:29 TW: Maybe like a little section, I don’t know. Again, my previous comments about not being artistic. When I’ve actually done a resume, it’s not that aesthetically pleasing.
0:17:40 OD: There’s a lot of recruitment systems, though, that you can actually like boolean search in them and you boolean search the keywords, so absolutely like that’s… I would definitely suggest putting in a lot of keywords that match.
0:17:51 MK: So I heard that the LinkedIn profile tags is one of the ways that LinkedIn matches from a recruiter search more so than the description or the position descriptions. Do you know if that’s true? So you know how you have those tags under your profile? I think mine says SQL R, digital analytics podcast, something like that.
0:18:13 OD: Yeah, I think it depends, ’cause recruiters, they’re using… So I have LinkedIn Recruiter, which is like it kind of like Canva pro, like a pro license, basically, where you can really search, and do specific searches and there’s lots of different various ways that you can search for your candidates, so we can do like keyword searches on people’s profiles. You can do searches obviously on job titles, you can do searches on multiple parts of people’s profiles, I think it varies. And that’s when I’m a recruiter and I’m searching or trying to hire for a role, I’ll definitely do a lot of different types of searches that I usually kinda build out a bit of a boolean search, and for data analytics, I’ll be like putting in place… Depends on what we need, but… Say, focusing on my AB testing and experimentation on this kind of piece. And then I’ll have another piece that will be on like a Okay, SQL and like a few other areas, so you definitely wanna build out your profile and have a lot of those keywords.
0:19:12 MH: We keep talking about LinkedIn, so where do the… You know, uploading your resume to job sites, do you ever use those or are in-house recruiters at this point saying, “Look, if you’re in the job market, you’re gonna be on LinkedIn and anything we find somewhere else should be duplicative,” or, “Oh my god, get your act together and at least get your stuff on LinkedIn where we can find you.”
0:19:37 OD: Are you saying stuff like SEEK or Indeed? Those kind of…
0:19:39 MH: Yeah, SEEK, Indeed, Monster or whatever.
0:19:43 OD: Yeah. Honestly, I would say use LinkedIn. LinkedIn’s kinda taken over the industry. It’s not ideal for those companies for me to say that, but we don’t use Indeed, we don’t use any of those really. And I’d say from experience, I think SEEK and Indeed are really strong for maybe on the more blue collar side and LinkedIn’s a very strong kinda white collar and generally, you’re on LinkedIn, I would say.
0:20:08 MH: Also, do most companies that are hiring, most companies of any size or scale, are they posting on LinkedIn as well? So for a job seeker who’s looking… So I think there’s one, there’s the bucket as Moe alluded to. “I really would like to work for one of these three or four companies. I wanna go to their site and see what they’ve got that’s most current that I might be a fit for.” But outside of that, if it’s just, “I’m looking for roles,” do you recommend LinkedIn? Are most companies… Unless you wanna work for a small business that you… Can you expect most of the jobs to be posted on LinkedIn or no?
0:20:48 OD: In tech, I think so. It depends probably on the industry, because I think SEEK and Indeed are much more popular for other industries. But for tech, I’m thinking that’s my angle yeah, it’s LinkedIn for sure.
0:21:01 MH: Okay.
0:21:02 MK: So are there any… I just wanna loop back to the… I hate it when people say, “I just wanna loop back” but I find myself saying it all the time. Are there any massive no-no’s on a resume? The funny thing is, I actually end up reviewing resumes for people a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot. And shameless plug, every single time someone sends me a resume I’m like, “Redo it in Canva,” ’cause I actually think Canva has nailed in some of their resume templates how to make them not look shit, but still get all the information across.
0:21:33 MH: There goes my last call for the CV generator from a Google spreadsheet using R. [chuckle]
0:21:39 MK: Yeah, yeah.
0:21:43 MH: You think I’m kidding.
0:21:44 MK: I’m not. [laughter] But yeah, what are the big no-no’s that when you pick up a resume that you’re like “Ugh”? What about having a photo on it? People still put their addresses, I find that weird.
0:21:57 OD: Oh no, I think addresses are fine.
0:21:58 MH: When I was interviewed, I found out that a future co-worker, she lived on the same street I was on and had for a number of years, and she was like, “It’s so weird that we don’t know each other” and now…
0:22:07 OD: It’s not stalker-ish at all, is it?
0:22:10 MK: But I’ll just put Sydney, Australia. I don’t think… As long as you say where you’re based. I don’t know.
0:22:17 OD: Yeah. No, I think it’s justified. I think a big no-no’s… Just having a properly formatted, clean resume. You would be surprised the amount of applications that we get that are just… Resumes have big blocks of text, it’s really hard to decipher the text, there’s no… They start in various different angles when it comes to the CV and not having a clean, “Okay, well this is my experience, these are my responsibilities, these are my job achievements.” People rarely put job achievements, people generally just put a laundry list of their job responsibilities that you can get from a job description. So I think just really taking your time on your resume. People don’t. It just comes across on a lot of resumes.
0:23:00 MH: So tiny little typos, is that a… I’m like, “You can’t do that,” but it may be because that’s my OCD thinking that…
0:23:06 TW: I have a hard time taking a typo in resume seriously. Because what it says is that… The first impression that you’re creating is that your attention to detail is such that you’re not even willing to try to go over that first hurdle. Which means that when we get down into the weeds together, you’re probably not gonna have the level of attention to detail that I need you to have regardless, right?
0:23:30 MH: Or you didn’t find somebody else to actually proofread it and give it a look as the second set of eyes.
0:23:36 TW: So I’ll tell you how I do it. I don’t know if this works for everybody else, but this is how I do it. Which is, okay, you worked on a document, a resume, whatever. You’ve worked through it, you looked at it, print it out and read it on a piece of paper, because that changes your perspective and you’ll pick stuff up. So if you don’t have a friend, for instance, to get a second pair of eyes, that’s a way that I found mistakes I didn’t see when I had it on my screen. I just printed it out. So with a resume or a CV, you can afford to print one or two of those, not a bunch. Also, do you take resumes to interviews anymore? Do you have to print out some for all your… It seems like…
0:24:13 OD: Well, we’re all on Zoom at the moment, aren’t we? [chuckle]
0:24:17 TW: Yeah. Well, right. So if you were going to an in-person… Yeah, I just hold it up so everyone on the Zoom can see it. [laughter]
0:24:26 MH: No, no, no, if you ask the recruiter for the mailing addresses of everybody that you’re going to talk to so you can send them the physical resume but…
0:24:33 OD: We have some really creative approaches as well. I think I’ve had about three of four candidates send through YouTube videos, and have done tailored YouTube videos.
0:24:41 MK: Stop it!
0:24:41 MH: That’s high quality stuff.
0:24:43 MK: What do you think about that, though? ‘Cause then you’re forced to watch it.
0:24:46 MH: Let’s not make that a norm, though, ’cause seriously, I can’t do… TikTok, sure. YouTube, no. Vimeo, eh. I can barely do a Word doc here, people. Come on.
0:25:00 OD: It’s cute but sometimes you’re like, “Oh no, we’ve got another YouTube video here.” But I don’t know, it’s cute. They obviously tailor it to Canva and they’re very passionate about the company, but yeah, sometimes it’s little bit much.
0:25:13 MK: What about… Okay, what about length? ‘Cause my advice is always two pages.
0:25:18 OD: Yeah, two pages, I’d say. Three pages, max, but I think two pages is… You’re gonna get enough on two pages.
0:25:25 MK: Okay. And one of the tips that I always tell people when I’m reviewing, and so I’m curious to hear your feedback on this, and I’m pretty sure a recruiter told me this ’cause I didn’t make it up. Rather than listing… Everyone always has “Responsibilities”, and then all their dot points, and I’m curious also if it should be dot point or paragraph, and my advice is always, “Instead of listing your responsibilities, just list all of your achievements in that role. Because by doing that, you’re actually gonna be telling the person what your responsibilities are.” ‘Cause if you say, “Led an A/B test on the checkout that led to a 10% uplift”, you’re telling people that you do A/B testing and that’s within your remit without being like, “Lead A/B testing for the product team.” What’s your thoughts?
0:26:08 OD: Yeah, achievements. Like I said earlier, people generally just put a lot of laundry list of responsibilities and you’re not getting anything extra. If you think about like most candidates are doing that, what’s gonna set you apart in an application is, “Okay, what have you achieved? What have you actually specifically done?” And I think achievements over just job responsibilities is definitely a preference for recruiters.
0:26:32 MK: Okay, what about referees? So I’ve actually stopped putting referees on there because I think it’s a waste of space. Generally, recruiters will ask you and be like, “Hey, I’d like to speak to some referees.” and then you’re like, “Cool, here are my referees.” Plus then you get the chance to reach out to your referees to be like, “Hey, expect a call from Ollie. He’s gonna be ringing within the next few days.” And the thing that most bugs me is referees upon request. I feel like that is the stupidest thing to put on your resume, because obviously they’re available if requested.
0:27:06 OD: But a lot companies don’t do references anymore. We don’t do references, Google stopped doing references, ’cause I don’t know, I’ve got… My own thoughts on this are if you’re a candidate and you’re applying to a job, you’re gonna have your referee as your best mate or your really close colleague, so they’re gonna give a shining, beautiful reference for you. And that’s what we saw when we actually looked into the data of people that are actually getting rejected at the reference stage, it was next to minimal. So we’ve actually stopped doing them. Yeah, last place, we don’t do them at Canva because of that.
0:27:40 MK: The one time I actually really did like it is I got asked to do a reference check, and she was actually in the end, a good friend that I worked very, very closely with. But the thing that I loved about it was that they used it as an opportunity to ask lots of questions about her. And, “What could I share that would make her successful in the role?” Or, “How did she need to be supported?” Or, “What motivates her?” And so it was actually more… The reference check was more about understanding how they could best manage her and get the most out of her rather than a traditional reference check, and I actually left that call thinking it was really nice.
0:28:17 OD: Yeah, that’s nice. I like that.
0:28:19 MH: So we’ve been kinda talking about the resume, the trying to get in the door to have the discussion. What do you see, what are the major turn-offs or not setting yourself apart when assuming a candidate has actually gotten to where they’re having the interview? What are kind of the typo or sloppy resume equivalents of the in-person interview?
0:28:41 OD: A few things like lack of preparation, I would say. Not really doing your due diligence on, for example, the company, who we are, what we’re doing. Little things like how we make money, or what’s the business model. Is it a SaaS business? Stuff like this. Not showing that kind of genuine interest as well in the business and what we’re trying to achieve, I think, is a big one. I’m coming from an angle here where we’ve got a luxury of a lot of people applying to Canva, and there’s so much interest in Canva, so we’ve probably got a bit more of a luxury here, but I think that’s a big no-no. You just gotta have a basic level of research and attention to the role if you’re applying.
0:29:21 MH: And that starts with the discussion with the… Because a lot of times, it’s the recruiter who does the screening before the interviews get set up. I feel like sometimes there’s this tendency of, “Well, I’m just talking to the recruiter so I can be casual.” But is that the sort of thing where you’d be like, “They checked the boxes for the skills, but they didn’t even know how Canva makes money”? Would that be a potential… I’m sure it’s a multi-dimensional heuristic that decides who gets through, but…
0:29:49 OD: Yeah.
0:29:50 MH: They should prepare for the recruiter and…
0:29:52 OD: Absolutely.
0:29:53 MH: See that as an opportunity to prep for the further interviews, I would assume. Ask the questions that are gonna make you look better if you get beyond that stage.
0:30:01 OD: Yeah, absolutely. We do pretty full interviews as well, we’re asking interview questions as recruiters. And it’s not just they check box, screen, “Hello, this is the role” kind of set-up. It’s actually like, “Okay, is this person interested?” And especially at Canva here, our recruiters do a lot of probing and understanding, “Is someone interested and do they understand what we’re doing and what we’re about?” And yeah, we don’t book for a lot of candidates because of that more cultural piece and the more piece around attention and preparation.
0:30:34 TW: Yeah. I have something I wanna say about this specifically in the analytics space, because a lot of times in analytics, recruiters are coming after us. And so a lot of times that initial set of conversations, we’re not sure yet whether we even wanna be in a conversation with this company. And it’s very delicate because while you don’t know, so I’m speaking to everyone out there who may be a candidate in those conversations, pretend that you are interested. It’s actually really important, because if you want it to go any further, just getting on there and being like, “Well, whatever, I don’t know.” like, “Oh, I’m sorry, I did not mean to waste your time with this. We’ll move on.” But if you want it to go any further than that. So don’t take the call, obviously, if you have no interest, but if you have any interest to exploring it, seeing where it might go, even if you don’t know if you’re gonna be interested, just say so, because it makes it all the difference in the world.
0:31:30 TW: If you think about from your perspective, Ollie and Moe and me, when we talk to people, we’re recruiting for our organization, we love our company. We’re excited about what we’re trying to do, and if I don’t see you sharing that excitement or having some of that excitement too, I’m like, “I don’t see you fitting in here.” That just doesn’t seem like it’s gonna be… So it’s really hard to develop a really positive impression of somebody when they don’t at least say, “I’m very interested in this” in some capacity. And in analytics, because we’re so in demand, it’s sort of like, “Well, impress me.” And it’s sort of like, I get it.” I’ve done the same thing. And I’ve said really stupid things to recruiters over the years. I’d be like, “Well, unless the salary starts with a two and ends with a 50,000, then don’t even talk to me.” Or whatever. It’s just dumb, dumb stuff. Like they have any… But the point is, if you get in that conversation and be like, “I’m really excited about this role” then later after they offer you the job, then you can tell them that you don’t want it anymore.
0:32:31 MH: No, literally at any point along the path. That’s where I feel like people don’t understand. Like, “But I’m doing… I don’t really think I’m interested.” It’s like you can say, “No, I’m not interested,” when they invite you to come in for the interview. And there’s nothing wrong with that.
0:32:44 TW: And you never know what might change about your mindset as you get to know the company more. That’s the process. But I find people shut it down right away by just being like, no interest at all. As if I’ve gotta bend over backwards to gain your attention. I’ve sold SDI hard. There was this guy I recruited and eventually hired, some of you listeners might know of him, kind of long hair…
0:33:12 TW: And honestly…
0:33:12 MK: Is it silky? Silky long hair?
0:33:15 TW: Yeah, and you know, lives up in Ohio somewhere. And I’ll tell you what, he was just sort of like, “What can you do for me?” And it was… Ugh. [laughter] It was rough. But you know what? I persevered and… [laughter] No, I’m just kidding.
0:33:35 OD: It is a fine balance, though.
0:33:38 MH: There was nothing about that that was true.
0:33:40 TW: No.
0:33:41 OD: I think it is a fine balance of actually kind of selling… As a recruiter, you do wanna sell the business as well. You can’t just rely on, “Someone should be interested in us.” You wanna be actually portraying, okay, what we’re trying to achieve, the business, all that kind of stuff I think is really, really important. And what we say, what we suggest to interviewers as well is have a 70/30 approach when you’re interviewing. So 70% of your time should be probing and actually understanding someone’s experience, but also 30% of the time should be you talking them through the role, the company, and actually giving them information.
0:34:14 MH: Well, and I take a lot out of what questions people ask me. So a lot of times in an interview, I ask some questions and then I say, “Okay, I’ve been asking you a lot of questions. What’s a question that I can answer for you?” And then what they ask and start into a conversation on, helps me understand a lot of things. In fact, a huge perception changer for me is when somebody’s like, “Oh cool,” and they open up their binder and they have a huge list of questions they’ve already pre-written out, they’ve done a ton of research. It just changes everything about what you’re thinking about that person. ‘Cause you’re like, “Hey, wow, I appreciate that you… ” Like you said to your point earlier, Ollie, the prep that they did prior to going into that. It makes a massive difference.
0:34:56 MK: But I was just gonna add that questions can also be, and I did promise Ollie I would tell this story, questions could also be the thing that gets your foot in the door. So especially at a company like Canva, you think about how many resumes they get for a role, I have some really cheeky tricks that I use to basically even just get me to that first interview. And so one of the things that I’ve noticed is often when you apply you get an email back, and sometimes it has the recruiter’s name there but very often it doesn’t have their phone number. And so what I’ll do is I’ll call the office… This is actually what I did to poor Katie at The Iconic.
0:35:36 MK: I called The Iconic and I was like, “Hi, I’ve just missed a call from Katie, she’s left me a message, it’s about this role, I don’t quite catch her number. Do you mind popping me through to her?” And of course nobody actually has real phones anymore so they gave me Katie’s phone number. I then called Katie and I had three questions about the role ready to go. And I said, “Hi Katie, my name’s Moe… ” Two of the questions I knew she could answer because they were generically about the role. One of the questions I knew she was gonna have to ask the hiring manager. And I use this as a very manipulative trick. Because it means that Katie has to go to the hiring manager and be like, “This woman Moe has applied for a job. This is the question she’s asked.” Now suddenly someone on the hiring team knows your name, and hopefully you have a good question, and you’ve set yourself out from probably 99 other applicants.
0:36:26 MH: So Moe, what’s a good example of one of those questions?
0:36:31 MK: Well, it depends on the role. Two of them are normally culture-based, but one of the things that I’ll ask is… I’ve got a list of questions that I ask. One is, “What does success look like in this role?” Or, “Do you think that there is anything on my resume that I need to grow or develop that would help me better suit this role?” The two that I always actually ask at the end of an interview, I ask one or the other, I say, “What’s the biggest challenge facing the team over the next 12 months?” And I never, ever, ever answer that question, I just let them tell me what the challenge is. Or I say, “If we were sitting here in 12 months talking about a great first year I’d had in this role, what does success look like for me in this role?”
0:37:15 MK: And then I use that as a really cheeky hook to send a follow-up email a day or two after the interview and say, “Hey, you talked about the biggest challenge facing the team. I’ve given that some thought and here is how I think I can help contribute to solving that problem.” And then it gives you a chance to send a thank you email without just sending a totally corny thank you email without any substance. Like I said.
0:37:39 MH: But now you can send a Thank You video. [laughter]
0:37:40 TW: That’s right.
0:37:41 MH: ‘Cause now we know.
0:37:43 TW: Or a thank you little card that you made on canvas. You keep saying cheeky Moe, I think it’s just smart. I don’t know what the word cheeky means in Australia.
0:37:54 MH: I think it’s deceptive and aggressive is the words I was thinking but, you know.
0:38:00 TW: Oh, what? [laughter]
0:38:01 OD: You’ve recruited the recruiter there, that’s hilarious. ‘Cause that’s like an old recruiter trick is to kind of call businesses and make out you’re someone else and then get through to the hiring manager, stuff like that.
0:38:14 TW: Yeah. One time I asked a recruiter, this is a long time ago, they got through to me on the phone, and they’re like, “I have this role, blah blah blah in analytics.” And I was like, “Cool. We can work together if you could just define for me what web analytics is. What is it?” And they’re like, “Aah… ” It’s like, “Yeah, we’re not going any further, thank you.” So recruiters do a… Actually, I would say recruiters are doing a little better at their prep in a lot of ways than they used to. It used to be like, I’m just dialing all day long. Now I feel like it’s a research job in a lot of ways.
0:38:47 OD: Yeah, definitely.
0:38:49 MH: I worked with an internal recruiter who I did not get the job when I was looking to move from Texas to Ohio. Three years later, she was my internal recruiter when I did get a separate job. Five years later, she periodically attends Web Analytics Wednesdays because she was still tasked with recruiting for that role. She was amazing. And three years later, she remembered me, I remembered her, which made the… When the right role in the right time kinda cropped up, that actually fit, but then it was… That was like, she was like, “I’m just here ’cause I wanna hear what people are talking about, I’ll meet some people. We don’t have any open positions right now, but I am tasked with hiring in our analytics organization and I wanna hear what the conversation pieces are.” So that was amazing.
0:39:32 MK: Can I just… I wanna move to some candidate behaviors because I have really… Well, okay, strong thoughts on this, ’cause you know, all of my thoughts are so weakly held, normally. [chuckle]
0:39:45 MH: As opposed to everything so far where you’re like, yeah, whatever.
0:39:49 MK: So one of the things that Aubrey Blanche mentions, we all know I have a professional crush on her, is that by having a diverse panel of interviewers and seeing who the candidate makes eye contact with… So like, I don’t know, if the white middle-aged dude is in the room and he asks the question, does the candidate look at all three people or do they make eye contact with the woman or the minority person who’s in the room? Does their body language give everyone interviewing equal respect, or are they constantly deferring to the white middle-aged dude? And I absolutely loved that. I was so obsessed. And to be honest, we’re really lucky in our team, ’cause it is very diverse that it would be pretty rare for us to not have a diverse interview panel just because of the makeup of our team. But I do wonder, Ollie, if you’ve seen this play out and does that mean that minority groups end up kind of having to do the interview burden because you need to have diversity, and so they have to be involved in more interviews?
0:40:53 OD: Yeah, that’s a good question, actually. And good question on the burden piece because what we’ve tried to advocate in all my area, roles that I’ve had before in the past is having diverse panels and having diversity of thought as well as just diversities of backgrounds. And that’s something we’ve really tries to push towards. It is really kinda problematic when it comes to engineering, and generally, obviously, engineering is very male-dominated and the burden does fall on their own people there so, that’s why you have to do a lot of coaching with your engineering teams and actually really try to coach them on… If you don’t have a diverse panel, coach them on okay, how are you assessing candidates? And how are you approaching interviews and trying to get away from some of those behaviours. But it’s generally speaking, like in all my past roles, we’ve tried to have diverse panels. Sometimes it can be problematic.
0:41:43 MH: But it seems like, Moe, the other challenge with the… ’cause there is the… I could have sworn I’ve heard somebody actually talk about that like, “Oh, I’m the black female, so I have four times as many interviews. I get why they’re doing it, but that’s actually not my day job.” So there’s that piece. It seems like the other is the actual being aware and watching like the… There’s no reason that me as a middle-aged white dude should not be picking up on, no matter who asked the question, they turn and respond to me. ‘Cause that seems like the other challenge is that then you have the non-middle aged white dudes who are actually just gonna be better at paying attention to that and actually voicing it. You’d still definitely need to have… I think the more you can have as an organization, everyone’s kind of thinking about that, I would say as a candidate, hopefully assume that everywhere you’re interviewing is watching for that. It’s a two-way, assume that they are thinking that, be very conscious about it. It’s probably not gonna backfire on you unless there’s the white misogynist who’s like, “Why do they keep responding to my co-worker?”
0:43:00 OD: I think admittedly any company needs to be having unconscious bias training as part of their interview hiring, interview training. And have you been part of that unconscious bias training, Moe?
0:43:12 MK: I have not. I have at previous companies, but not at Canva yet.
0:43:16 OD: Right. We’ll need to roll you onto it.
0:43:17 MK: Okay, great. Good. Sign me up. [chuckle]
0:43:21 OD: Well, though, you were saying earlier that you’re not doing as much interviewing, that you’ve not actually interviewed your team, which is interesting.
0:43:29 MK: Yeah, I trust the team to make the call, so… And what about other behaviors ’cause… Oh, my God. So, Michael, I’m reading Never Split the Difference again, because I feel like I really need it to sink in. And I can’t remember the exact breakdown of percentages, but it was something along the line of 60/30/10 versus body language, tone of voice and then what you actually say. And basically, his point was, I think it was 60% is your body language. I guess as a candidate as well, interviews are fucking scary. You are… And I remember an interview where I had five hours back to back, it was all white middle-aged dudes. And I felt really uncomfortable.
0:44:14 MK: It was probably the worst interview experience of my life, and it was exhausting being on for that long. And there were breaks and stuff, but you are in a stressful place when you’re getting interviewed. I guess, what are the other behaviors that a candidate, noting that it’s a stressful time, can try and I guess, give pause to or focus on what are your thoughts about asking for breaks? Sometimes, to be honest, when you get really overwhelmed, I’ll just be like, “Hey, can I just write the question down and have a minute to think it through?” ‘Cause you feel this pressure to answer instinctively. What are your thoughts about other ways you can kind of settle yourself down as a candidate and relax?
0:44:56 OD: Kinda few ways. I’d say having breaks actually not just rushing straight into questions. Taking your time to kinda think through them, jot notes down, taking a notepad and pen into the interview and actually write notes and say, “Hey, can I take… That’s what we actually have noticed, that’s really good in the past when candidates are actually not just rushing into answering questions and actually taken a time on it. Take little things like taking water and having water during the interview and having that a bit of collective even… Have a bit of collective for of… What do we do actually? A little while ago, we actually trialled star of interviews for our candidates, like having a kind of like a meditation type set up in the first two minutes of them actually doing breathing exercises. And we actually kind of looked at them doing breathing exercises and actually kind of being very… Getting their mindset into the right mental mode for the interview.
0:45:52 MK: I think you should interview Tim with that method, can you… Let’s set that up Tim would have like…
0:46:01 MH: I already looked, it’s only general interest in data jobs we’re the only ones that… I’m not qualified for the two. Can I say on that, there is a… And putting aside, I’ve lost my job, I need an income. I’m really stressed. This is… Its actually one of the reasons to Michael’s point of are you gonna take the call when you do have a job. I’ve told a million people that. Way better to be looking when you don’t have to than to be looking when you do have to. So putting aside the, I really need the job. To me, when the light bulb went on that I’m not going in and hoping I get the job, I’m going in and I’m confident and again, middle-aged white dude with every possible advantage, so I feel like I need to start putting that caveat in everything. Going in, if I’m the right fit, and the company is the right fit for me then do I trust the process. As opposed to going in saying, “Am I making a good impression? Am I doing this? Am I doing that?” And Moe, even as you’d been going through some of the… You did come out of some was saying, “Oh, that went…
0:47:09 MK: Awfully.
0:47:10 MH: That was so stressful and so terrible, and yet then you get feedback there like, “Yeah, it was great.” There is a degree of going in with the mindset that it’s not… You didn’t fail if you don’t get the job. If you don’t get the job more often than not, it maybe it wasn’t the best fit. Which may mean the company is not a fit for you every bit as much as you not being what they’re looking for, and when that, I don’t know. Sometime 15 years ago, I found myself much more relaxed. Tougher to do when you’re looking for your first job. Definitely tougher to do when you’re like, “This is the only iron I have in the fire, but I mean, I don’t know.
0:47:49 TW: I just listen to “Eye of the Tiger” on repeat in the car.
0:47:53 TW: Before I go in. You think I’m joking.
0:48:00 MK: Sure. Ollie what about… Oh God. Ollie, what about the candidate asking questions? ‘Cause I’m not gonna lie, if we get to the end of the interview and a candidate doesn’t ask me any questions, I am very disappointed. I am so sad ’cause I also I’m like, “This is the chance for you to interview us and make sure that we are somewhere that you wanna work.” And I find it so disappointing if people don’t ask questions but I’m curious on your perspective.
0:48:32 OD: I also think it’s asking questions but not asking questions for the sake of asking questions, if that makes sense. When people just ask you questions on, “Oh… ” Just random vague questions, I just don’t find that a good sign. It’s when they’re asking specific or probing good questions. That’s when you know, “Okay, they actually put a bit of thought into this. That makes sense?
0:48:53 MK: What about questions… Okay, I’ve got to bring it up. People do sometimes I ask questions about pay, about benefits, about things like paternity leave, about flexible work, about start time. I’ve had people be like, “What time do you start in the morning?” And I’m like, “What is this, school?”
0:49:13 OD: Well, some companies are very regiment over that.
0:49:15 MH: Yeah, some companies are like that. I went through on boarding at a company Moe for a whole week and at the end I raised my hand and was like, “Where do we put our time in?” I had no idea that in a corporate environment, you don’t generally track your time, ’cause I’d only been in consulting. It didn’t come up in the interview process, but it was in the onboarding process, but it was sort of like, people just don’t know. So I tend to just be like, try to be understanding about where those questions might be coming from. I just been like, “Oh, you’re gonna like it here. We’re way more low-key than where you might be used to.” So anyway, speaking of being low-key, I’ve been low-key about us needing to wrap up for quite a while now Moe. Oh, I know it.
0:50:01 MK: I want this to go on for a whole nother hour.
0:50:03 MH: Yeah, not gonna happen. We gotta wrap up. And we also gotta do a little bit of a lightning round, ’cause there’s a couple of questions that I think our audience needs answers too. So Ollie if you’re ready, as fast as you can, pros, cons, saying swear words like shit, fuck, damn, hell in an interview.
0:50:21 OD: But not the same was as Moe said.
0:50:23 MH: Yeah, exactly.
0:50:26 MH: Also, LinkedIn offers resume review service. Have you heard of people using it? Do you think it’s a good value? I believe it’s like $20 or something. I’ve heard very positive things, but I’m more curious what you think.
0:50:40 OD: I’ve actually never heard of people, that’s relative… That’s new to me honest. I’ve not really seen that before. But I think it’s very good to do, have your resume reviewed and I think that’s something you should do whether it’s a friend or an expert, anyone.
0:50:52 TW: I had a friend that went through it and they said the feedback was both personal and constructive and obviously gone through by a person.
0:51:00 MK: You lost, you just lost the ability to call this a quick-fire round by ranting in the story.
0:51:04 MH: Hey Moe, hey, easy Moe.
0:51:06 OD: Next question. Next question.
0:51:07 MH: No, that’s it. We’re gonna wrap up. Here is what we do on the show, we do have to wrap up, and it’s actually been obviously a conversation that all of us really feel deeply about. So I do appreciate you Ollie taking the time to answer some of these questions, I think you and Moe could probably just schedule some additional meetings after this to probably get through some more of those questions. But one thing we do wanna do is we go around the corner and we do what we call, last call. Just something of interest that we think might be a benefit to our listeners. Ollie, you’re our guest, do you have a last call you’d like to share?
0:51:41 OD: I’d say, kind of a tip for interviewing, it’s a bit corny, but actually generally comes across during interview processes, is just interview processes, just be your genuine self and don’t try and manufacture your answers to what you think the interviewer wants, or is thinking. So just answer questions to what you think’s best and be your genuine self.
0:52:03 MH: I like it. Alright, what about you Moe, your last call?
0:52:07 MK: Yes, so I actually also had… I have a twofer, let’s be real. My first one is, I don’t look for jobs anymore, I look for companies. I actually have found that when I look for a specific job title, I end up at a place I’m really unhappy with. If I look for a company where I wanna work, I find I always end up in the position that I wanna be anyway. The exact thing has happened at my last two roles like, I literally end up in the job that I wanted, I might not have started there. So my tip would be to, yeah, focus on the companies that you wanna work for, not the job or the pay. And then secondly, I did also come across… We’re building out new dashboards at the moment, everyone’s favorite. And someone, I can’t remember who recommended it, but put me onto this website called InformationIsBeautiful.net, and.
0:53:00 MH: Oh, yeah.
0:53:00 MK: Yeah, I’m really having fun trawlling through it, looking at different visualizations. So that’s just an interesting one to put in your Data Viz folder.
0:53:09 MH: Alright, Tim, what about you, last call?
0:53:13 TW: I’m gonna go for three-fer, but they’ll be quick. So one just because I made the crack about it. There is the data-driven CV R package. In his… This was Nick Strayer, which NickStrayer.me, his site, he does some really pretty cool interesting stuff with R, but his point was if you’re trying to just maintain your CV and adding projects and stuff, so I haven’t played around with it, but it seemed appropriate for the episode. And then I’m gonna do two podcast episodes. One was how I built this episode that was Luis von Ahn where he talked to, he’s the guy who created CAPTCHA and reCAPTCHA and Duolingo. So it’s just interesting if you’re at all into the CAPTCHA and the reCAPTCHA. It’s hilarious how those came about and how he did not make money off of them.
0:54:00 TW: And then one that’s a little more… It’s kind of odd, it’s the third episode of a new podcast called The Last Archive. That’s Jill Lepore who’s like a long-time New Yorker writer, and Episode Three of The Last Archive is called The Invisible Lady. And what’s interesting, I think, from an analyst perspective is that she walks through tracing the idea of the right to privacy in the US. It’s got a very, very US… She’s like Louis Brandeis wrote The Right to Privacy, the original. And I’m like, “There’s a whole bunch of people in Europe who might say it’s got a little bit longer and different routes.” But it also goes into the role of women and how they were basically kept down. So it starts… It’s a historical thing with… But the Invisible Lady, saying this was a bit of an ideal was that we don’t want to actually hear our women or see them back in the Victorian age. So it was a good listen and has some analytics spin to it. That was relatively quick. What do you got Michael?
0:55:04 MK: Relatively.
0:55:05 MH: So over the past few months, you probably remember we had this whole pandemic that affected the whole world.
0:55:12 OD: What was that?
0:55:13 MH: No, I’m just kidding. Yeah, exactly. So long ago. Well, anyway, during that time, I started the joint program, which was just networking for people in analytics, who’d been put in and out of jobs, and I met a lot of people through that. And I ran across a lot of resources and I’ve documented some of those. But one that I’ll mention on the show, because actually, what’s interesting is, over the years, I’ve always job searched in a particular way based on when I’ve done job searches. It has changed dramatically over the years, and you have a whole other set of skills you need to bring into it, which is a lot of what we’ve discussed today.
0:55:49 MH: There’s a website that someone I was talking to mentioned, and I went through and looked at a lot of their materials. And they have a bunch of YouTube videos on their YouTube channel, a website called WorkItDaily, and it might just be more like a US focused thing. So pardon, if it’s doesn’t map well to EU or APAC types of conversations. But I found a lot of the content extremely helpful. And so for anybody, and there’s actually still quite a few people who are looking for work or have been laid off. And so these kinds of resources can be really helpful just in having some of these no-brainer types of things. We’ve talked about some but there’s a lot more, just really great resources.
0:56:31 MH: The other thing I’ll say, and this is more just like an observation, I guess, is as people get laid off from a job, I’ve noticed that it’s really hard on them emotionally and personally. And a lot of times a little note or a message from a friend can mean a big deal while they’re recovering their ego and emotional balance from something that’s honestly not even their fault, right? When the economy impacts a company, the reasons they got let go probably have nothing to do with anything to do with them. But it’s human nature to assume that, “Something’s wrong with me because this happened.” And so just a little bit of encouragement, support. If you know someone who’s gone through that, or is going through that, can actually dramatically be a positive influence. And it’s just such a small thing. So just wanna encourage that. And okay, Moe you wanted to add one more thing. And so before I talk about our awesome producer Josh Crowhurst, I’m gonna hand it back to you for a second.
0:57:32 MK: Yes, I just wanted to add that similar to Helb’s, it is a weird time right now and lots of people are probably looking for roles. Like I said, I weirdly like this stuff and I am happy to review resumes. And so if you need a hand and you’re applying for data a job, I have to take a look, just reach out on Measure Slack.
0:57:50 MH: Awesome. And actually, that brings up a great point ’cause we would all love to hear from you and and if you want some advice on career and those kinds of things, I think I’ll be happy to, Moe will be happy to, and Tim will tell you…
0:58:03 MK: Tim, not so much.
0:58:04 MH: Just do your fucking job but he actually, actually he does care. It’s just that’s how he shows it. So go to some people that would probably be really helpful. Anyways, we would love to hear from you and that is the best way to do it, the Measure Slack or on Twitter, or on our LinkedIn group page that we have, that we don’t use very much. Anyways, it also, just to show what great people we are, we’re creating jobs in this economy. And one of those jobs that we’ve created is for our producer Josh Crowhurst.
0:58:39 MH: It’s terrible ’cause obviously it is nothing, and so that’s what’s amazing about Josh, he does such an incredible job and we couldn’t do the show without him. So Josh, as you’re listening, just know that we love you and we thank you for all the efforts you put forth. I know that I speak for both of my co-hosts, Ollie, thank you so much for coming on the show, sharing some of your knowledge with us. I think it’ll be a great support and help to our community, so thank you so much.
0:59:07 OD: Thanks, certainly.
0:59:09 MH: And for my co-hosts, Moe and Tim, I can tell you no matter if your job is… You’re looking for a new one, or you’re thinking about a new one, whatever you do, keep analysing.
0:59:24 Announcer: Thanks for listening. And don’t forget to join the conversation on Facebook, Twitter, or Measure Slack group. We welcome your comments and questions, visit us on the web at analyticshour.io, facebook.com/analyticshour or @analyticshour on Twitter.
0:59:44 Charles Barkley: So smart guys want to fit in so they’ve made up a term called analytic. Analytics don’t work.
0:59:52 Thom Hammerschmidt: Analytics, oh my God, what the fuck does that even mean?
0:59:57 MH: The whole thing where someone uses your middle name, you know you’re in trouble.
1:00:04 OD: Yeah, all of the times.
1:00:05 MH: Oh, there you go, thanks for that. We’ll use… We’ll have that filed away just in case.
1:00:12 TW: I hate to feel the pressure that I need to drop an F bomb just because we’re trying to maintain that explicit tag. So if we can have a guest who can drop…
1:00:19 MH: Yeah, it’s good to have guests who are supporting the site like, really dropping a couple of…
1:00:24 OD: Any good ones?
1:00:27 MH: Oh, just explore the space, you know?
1:00:34 MK: You’d click on a paid ad and then all my KPIs get screwed. Did you try to convert…
1:00:39 MH: Also, oh, I do that… As a matter of course, all over the internet. You haven’t noticed all the UTM parameters, I’m forcing into your Google Analytics?
1:00:48 TW: Rock, flag and cheeky Moe.
1:00:50 MH: Cheeky Moe is great. [laughter]