#195 - Web3, Web4... Whatever it NFTakes with Anthony Mandelli

The Web3 world—blockchain, cryptocurrency, NFTs, and more—seems to be everywhere these days. And, as analysts, how could we not salivate at the idea of a data set that is just one flat, immutable, ever-growing table with a handful of columns (aka… a blockchain-powered public ledger)? We sat down with Anthony Mandelli from Coin Metrics to see whether Tim and Moe could be moved from “totally clueless” to “barely knowledgeable” on the topic in a single hour (Michael was already a knowledgeable enthusiast). The jury is out as to whether we were successful, but stay tuned for the upcoming announcement of the Analytics Power Hour DAO we’re starting up (we’re minting RockFlag coins to make it happen).

Concepts and Resources Mentioned in the Show

Photo by Sean Foster on Unsplash

Episode Transcript

[music]

0:00:05.9 Announcer: Welcome to the Analytics Power Hour, analytics topics covered conversationally and sometimes with explicit language. Here are your hosts: Moe, Michael, and Tim.

[music]

0:00:22.2 Michael Helbling: Hey everyone, welcome to the Analytics Power Hour. This is episode 195. Have you ever heard anyone say WAGMI? What on earth does that mean? That’s an expression reflecting the optimism of the Web3 and crypto communities, it means “We’re all going to make it.” What we’re gonna make, well, that’s a lot less understood, but you know we don’t shy away from taking Doge to the moon and Lambos or Bored Ape NFTs can party in Miami or whatever all of that means. We’re talking crypto, Web3 and whatever it NFTakes on this episode of the Analytics Power Hour. I feel like maybe we should all invent cool crypto names for this episode, what would yours be, Moe?

0:01:09.8 Moe Kiss: I don’t know what you’re talking about, Helbs?

0:01:14.2 Tim Wilson: That’s a good one though with no spaces. It would have no spaces and…

0:01:17.3 MK: No spaces, yeah.

0:01:19.1 MH: What about you, Tim?

0:01:20.5 TW: I’m pretty sure cranky bastard would fit.

0:01:23.4 MH: Cranky bastard. That’s perfect, yeah. I’ll probably do something heart-related, ’cause that would be like cool. Alright, well, these are deep waters and we need a new guest, somebody who can bridge the data and crypto divide this podcast is going to have. Luckily, Anthony Mandelli is the community manager at Coin Metrics, a leading crypto data firm. He has also held numerous other roles in the crypto space, as well as spending some time at Snowplow Analytics, so we know he has some analytics cred. And today he is our guest. Welcome to the show, Anthony.

0:01:57.4 Anthony Mandelli: Thanks for having me. Long time listener, first time guest.

[chuckle]

0:02:01.3 MH: Wow. Awesome, we’re excited to have you. And I think we have probably varying degrees of knowledge just amongst us in this conversation right now of what cryptocurrency even is?

0:02:16.7 TW: I think Moe and I are on one extreme tail, and then where you fall Michael depends on whether we’re at average or anywhere else.

0:02:26.2 MH: Yeah, there’s stuff I certainly don’t understand, I would say I’m sort of a dilettante. Is that a word that works for this? But maybe we could start with sort of a general, quick description of a blockchain or a distributed ledger, just so people understand what that is.

0:02:46.0 AM: Sure, so at the core of it, the idea is to use a public, transparent ledger which is just a record of transactions or other state changes to keep a shared consensus view of, I guess, what’s going on, on the blockchain at any given time. So a whole bunch of words that mean potentially nothing. But essentially what that means is, if you think about something like Visa, who sits in the middle of billions and billions of transactions, they sort of have a record of what money is going out of which account and who it’s going to and they have all of these payment records. And whereas with blockchain, all of these records are on a public and open ledger, and there’s not one single organization or company that’s the sole custodian of those records. And different types of blockchains do this in different ways, but at the end of the day, what they all do is they use some sort of consensus algorithm to say that anyone who is running a node on this network has the same record of transactions. So we have this shared history and we all agree. So if all four of us have a record of money moving between the four of us, and I say, “Oh yeah, no, I totally paid Michael back that $50 for brunch.” And you guys don’t have that transaction on your records, well, it’s hard for me to get away with that when everyone can see where our money is moving. So it’s that shared consensus, which is the decentralization that always comes up in these conversations.

0:04:32.0 MK: So I’m gonna ask the lay person’s question, because that’s what I do well. So I understand this theoretically, but maybe you could explain a little bit now about Blockchain and how this is actually secure, right? Because to the average person, when you hear that, you’re like, “Hang on a minute, how is that a secure way of transferring money?” I have got air quotes.

0:04:53.1 TW: Can I ask a more lay question before we get to that question, which is like just raw terminology?

0:05:00.6 AM: Yeah, bring it on.

0:05:03.8 TW: Is that… So I feel like Bitcoin hit a lot of buzz and then Bitcoin was based on the blockchain, and Bitcoin got generalized as being a cryptocurrency, and even the example you were just talking about were around money moving around. And then you’ve got Web3 is a general term, and you’ve got NFTs, and it feels like all of those are in the same stew. Is the fundamental piece of that, that it is the blockchain, what you just described about sort of a shared distributed ledger, currency, or money or something… Is it money or is it not money? Let’s not go down that path. ‘Cause part of it…

0:05:47.7 MH: What is money?

0:05:48.5 TW: But I guess ’cause I was surprised some of the prep I was doing, ’cause I am very much not deep into this space was there was a quote that said, “Crypto usually refers to the entire universe of technologies that involve blockchains.” Which I thought Crypto was just short for cryptocurrency, but it… Is this blockchain? Is that the fundamental thing? It’s a blockchain which will get then back to Moe’s question. And all these other things sit on top of that. Is that the right way to think about it?

0:06:18.0 MK: I love that you said, can I make this easier and you made it infinitely more complex [laughter] but click on Anthony, have a go.

0:06:24.8 TW: Well, I’m more saying that like those are all terms that float around like… Let me make… Let me be cryptic about crypto.

0:06:32.9 AM: No, I mean, that’s a pretty good way to look at it. Unfortunately, there’s varying definitions of like what delineates Web3? And is that different from NFTs or crypto? And, I mean, as with most things, I find that people who stick too hard to some of these categories tend to narrow their thinking. But basically, Blockchain is a type of database. And so like Bitcoin is a blockchain, Ethereum is a blockchain, Tezos is a blockchain, there’s thousands of separate blockchains. Now, cryptocurrency is a sort of the fundamental type of token issued on a blockchain. So the Bitcoin network supports BTC the Bitcoin currency, and you can think of it like, Fortnite has its V-Bucks so it’s sort of like its own ecosystem with a digital currency native to that ecosystem…

0:07:35.8 MH: I’m only laughing because that’s like, Tim’s not gonna know what that is either… [laughter] Moe and I are like god damn it…

0:07:38.3 AM: No. Tim, it’s like roadblock where you have…

0:07:44.1 TW: Roadblock. Okay. Roadblocks.

0:07:46.4 MH: No, I’m kidding. Because that’s also equally unknown. Oh good Lord. [laughter] It’s like when you go somewhere where you pay with like, a card instead of cash, like you’re at a casino, like you get your cash turned into, like a card or something.

0:08:01.2 MK: Don’t you use chips at a casino?

0:08:03.6 AM: That’s, yeah, so it actually works as an analogy pretty well.

0:08:07.0 MH: Yeah, there you go, chips. Anything that disintermediates your cash from you feeling you’re giving up cash?

0:08:13.7 AM: Or like, if you think of Facebook, and if you’ve ever played FarmVille on Facebook, it was sort of like any of these other Facebook games. So…

0:08:22.0 MH: Nobody is gonna admit to that, Anthony. Come on.

[laughter]

0:08:25.1 AM: Yeah me neither… Totally…

0:08:27.7 TW: He’s like, oh crap. He’s like, you people are hopeless. Okay.

0:08:33.4 AM: Well, alright, so I figured this might happen. And I have a paper from 1974 that you might recognize. [laughter]

0:08:43.5 MH: As being the only person who was alive at that point. Okay… Go ahead. Carry on. No, I feel like you were… I think generally the V-Bucks or the…

0:08:54.8 TW: I think a way to maybe, see if this makes sense, Anthony, because maybe this is help, it’s the same thing as a distributed ledger, right? You can store a lot of things on a public ledger or a ledger, not just money, you could also store an agreement, you could store an ownership, you could store value, you could store rights to something. Like those are all things you could write down in a ledger. So a distributed ledger is just a way to store some sort of agreement that’s out in public, that is commonly understood, like I traded this to you, or I own this or something like that. I don’t know, that might not be accurate.

0:09:39.2 AM: And it’s distributed. But it’s also non… What’s it called non destructive. I mean, it is like a general ledger in accounting that you don’t go and change entries, you only add new entries, right. So that’s the other…

0:09:52.0 TW: Right.

0:09:52.7 AM: So the ledger is public, because to be distributed, it has to be totally public. But the key in it can be an anonymous thing. I figured that by this point, the people who are really into this have just dropped off the episode and it’s fine, because we would probably just piss them off by the time…

0:10:14.6 MH: They are probably hanging in there just to see how much worse it’ll get… [laughter] I’m just kidding. All right. Can we get back to Moe’s question? Are we ready for that now?

0:10:24.8 AM: Yeah, so where the security comes from in is that the tokens… So things like the Bitcoin token or the Ethereum token that have value, essentially… I’m doing my best to explain some very, very, like deep crazy, like game theory about how these incentive mechanisms work. But essentially, the economic incentive of wanting the tokens to be valuable and successful, sort of like acts as a way to ensure that people validating the network so saying, like, yes, this transaction actually happened and agreeing upon that shared history. Everyone wants to agree because if you don’t agree, then like you don’t get your rewards if you’re a network validator or if you get singled out as a bad actor, like there are other like economic punishments, essentially for trying to like, mislead the ledger.

0:11:23.9 MK: Oh…

0:11:24.9 MH: Yeah. And it seems like as with any kind of new, I don’t know what this is, is this new tech? Or is this new innovation? Like is this a sea change in sort of how we deal with things. But there’s definitely different ways that cryptocurrencies get accessed, and so some of them are very energy intensive, and that’s sort of become a negative to some of that… But it seems like that’s sort of getting addressed as sort of it, as crypto gets a little more mature, I guess, I don’t know.

0:11:54.4 MK: Sorry… And when you say energy intensive, because do you mean like that process that you talk about about having a shared ledger requires you to do things…

0:12:05.0 MH: Yeah.

0:12:05.8 MK: And some of those cryptocurrencies require you to do more maybe than others. Is that…

0:12:12.2 TW: I mean, they’ve been pretty doom and gloom estimates of just the amount of processing that Anthony had shared that some of that may have been putting at them on the scale, but you’re solving… You’re basically doing complex math equations just to be the first and fastest one to do them in some of the…

0:12:33.6 MH: Yeah, the original… Bitcoin is kind of the original cryptocurrency, I think, I don’t know if it’s the original. Is that true?

0:12:40.6 AM: I mean, by our current conception of what a cryptocurrency is, yes, there are a lot of predecessor softwares that exists that I’m obligated to mention first like community street cred, but for all intents and purposes, based on what the modern conception of a cryptocurrency is, yes, Bitcoin is the first.

0:13:05.6 MH: Got it. So in that in Bitcoin Moe, to get a Bitcoin, you solve basically like a hashing problem. Is that right?

0:13:16.5 AM: Yeah.

0:13:17.3 MH: And that’s by doing a lot of mathematical computations, which requires a lot of computational power, which requires a lot of electricity and so what happens is people were setting up these massive farms of computers sucking down tons of electricity and it sort of became sort of like an ecological question of sort of like, is this really a smart idea or not?

0:13:38.0 MK: Wow.

0:13:38.2 MH: Yeah, yeah.

0:13:38.8 MK: So this is why all the data nerds and engineers are so into it. Oh my God, and like something has just clicked in my brain.

0:13:46.5 MH: Yes, yes. Because basically, you could set up your home computer to just sort of be processing in the background, and every so often you might get paid a little bit of money. And then people go to the nth degree and set up computers where they’ve got 40 video cards strapped to it, and it gets ridiculous real fast. And I wish I had listened to my brother in 2012 when he told me to invest in it because it would have paid off my house probably, but here we are.

0:14:17.9 AM: The environmental conversation is definitely a very large and multi-faceted one, but yeah, I think where many people get caught up is you can both think that cryptocurrency is an interesting technology and also think that proof of work uses an exorbitant amount of energy, and that think that, that’s not ideal, right? Both things can be true, they’re not mutually exclusive opinions, and the other thing that I think trips up a lot of people is the kind of idea that… Yeah, they see the Bitcoin server farms, they hear all of these numbers, like Bitcoin uses as much energy per year as a country like Sweden, it’s 0.5% of global energy consumption, and that those things are very scary and they also happen to be true, but when you look at it compared to other industries like global transportation or healthcare or heavy metal mining, traditional financial services, it’s an exponential fraction of the energy cost of these other major industries.

0:15:32.7 AM: And at that point, the question then becomes, does Bitcoin use too much energy? It’s any amount of energy is too much for cryptocurrencies, and at that point it’s not… You’re not really having a question about energy consumption, you’re having a conversation about the moral application of what energy consumption is at the goal. And that’s a really tough conversation because when people read in the newspaper, they read about millions of dollars worth of Bored Apes got stolen because their Instagram, the company’s official Instagram account was recently hacked, that’s what they think of when they think of crypto, and they don’t see how it’s helping women in Afghan who are having their financial assets seized by the Taliban after the Taliban took over and Bitcoin is funding computer literacy programs for Afghan women or it’s helping people in Venezuela or around the world with other geopolitical issues and that, you know it seems like to me at least, a worthwhile use of energy.

0:16:40.2 TW: Well, the fact is that on the energy front, I’d like to tie it to kind of the analytics world, there’s lots of… There’s… I don’t think as much ’cause it doesn’t tie as closely to the moral beliefs about the Bitcoin or whatever, but there are discussions that are serious hand-ringing around how much energy consumption is going on because I can spin up something in AWS or Google and run crazy models, I don’t think about whether my query is being super efficient if I… Yeah, I could it write it better and it would run in 10 seconds or I gotta let it run for five minutes, I don’t care. And so I guess that’s… It feels like that’s the parallel. There are research being done around what’s the consumption around machine learning and AI, but that’s like so nebulous is to all of the applications that it’s harder for people to get directly upset about it, I think. But… And it’s not your like your framing it and neither it’s like, “Well, there’s a cost. There’s a cost and a benefit to everything.” And if you say there is an energy cost to anything we’re doing, driving to the grocery store has an energy cost and as humans we’re not necessarily well-equipped.

0:17:54.6 MK: But, I wonder if that’s also to do with the maturity of this product or platform whatever the word is that you wanna call it, where the things that have been around for a long time, we hold to a different standard of energy consumption because it’s what we’re used to where as for more modern developments, we expect that being more environmentally friendly is baked into it. I don’t know, maybe that’s my own…

0:18:22.6 MH: Well, and that’s not the only type of ledger as well, there’s other types that I think are more energy efficient, so that’s sort of how I think it’s evolving is… Isn’t there one major crypto that’s moving away from crypto world?

0:18:36.2 TW: I thought Ethereum.

0:18:37.4 AM: Yeah.

0:18:38.0 MH: Yeah.

0:18:38.2 AM: Ethereum is scheduled to move away from proof of work to proof of stake, which is essentially a different… It’s not a consensus algorithm, I’m gonna… If I even try to nail down what it is, I’m gonna get railed by the technical crowd but like one of the… Like one of the base technical components of the network, the proof of work that Bitcoin uses, they’re switching to proof of stake which doesn’t require that sort of arms race of who can solve the equation first and it’s, calculates differently.

0:19:10.7 MK: Okay. So can we take a step back? Why do you need someone to solve the equation first? I understand the model, you’re incentivized to solve it first because then you get paid more, but why do you need someone to solve the equation? What is that step doing?

0:19:31.8 AM: So that’s what is referred to as, for Bitcoin is referred to as mining, and other cryptocurrencies handle these features differently. But with Bitcoin, the total supply was established in the code in the beginning at 21 million Bitcoin, and it’s issued at a schedule of every time a new Bitcoin block is created, which are those groups of transactions, basically, a reward in Bitcoin is issued to the miners who solved that equation. It’s basically in order to move the chain to the next step, you need to solve that equation and bundle that group of transactions. This is like mining, you imagine mining gold out of a mountain, it’s an extractive process, and so that comes out of that 21 million bitcoin.

0:20:21.6 MH: And it’s an algorithmically or… Sorry, it’s a programmatically established issuance schedule. So Bitcoin has a predictable monetary policy that you can always count on. A counterexample is what’s going on in the United States with inflation and the recent stimulus, the Federal Reserve printing tons of additional new money as they’re trying to use these economic levers to control inflation in our national economy, so they’re just adding new money to give people more spending power. And it’s kind of still on the books as to whether or not we truly understand how inflation works and how these mechanisms actually function. Bitcoin, on the other hand, because it’s not issued by a company or a person or a government, it can’t just print more, so that’s where the digital scarcity angle comes from, in that there will only ever be 21 million Bitcoin released on this schedule, and that is set in stone.

0:21:29.8 TW: So how did we go from that to pictures of NFT and stuff? I think that leap really caught me off guard, I gotta be honest.

0:21:40.1 AM: Yeah. No one expected NFTs to be the thing that got so many people interested, good, bad, or indifferent, in crypto, but it certainly has. But yeah, at the core of it was just this idea that even in the early days of Bitcoin, the very early days of Bitcoin on the Bitcoin talk forum, one of the original forums, people talked about how you can use Bitcoin, you can send data with a Bitcoin transaction so you could send images, or one of the first Bitcoin transaction has the New York Times headline from that day, “Chancellor On Brink of Second Bailout,” because the German government needed to bail out a bunch of companies or whatever in the 2008 financial crisis. So it was always… The whole money, peer to peer cash thing was always… This is the first proof of concept of this distributed ledger technology. We can use it as a payment system. But as Tim pointed out and as Mike pointed out, you can put a lot of different types of data into these transactions. And really, blockchains are just like Nested JSON flying around with all sorts of little bits of data tucked inside of them.

0:23:00.0 MK: That’s weirdly comforting, right? Yeah.

[laughter]

0:23:04.9 TW: So there’s a couple of things, one, NFTs, I don’t own any, I have not minted any, although I will, like I had a glimmer. Recently, I was having beers with Scott Zakrajsek, and he was showing me stepping, it’s like FitBit meets, NFTs meets, where you still have to buy it, I gotta translate, I would have to convert US dollars into some form of cryptocurrency to buy a sneaker, but then the sneaker evolves based on my activity. I’m still not sure I fundamentally understand the business model they’ve got there, but I was like, “Okay, sure.” That’s like, I think Anthony said… You said game theory but also gamification seems to come in to some of these. The influencer world is coming in, you take the board apes yacht club. Unfortunately, bad actors who are trying to cut corners and get rich quick come in. It’s hard not to see speculation looking a lot like 1929 in some cases.

0:24:19.0 AM: Yeah.

0:24:19.1 TW: And then on top of that, as you described it, you’re like, “And there’s no government entity to say if things go off the rails, we can step in,” which is all chaotic. But where I was actually thinking was the whole Web 1.0 to, or Web 2.0 to Web 3.0, and I’ve only starting to understand where that whole blockchain enabled thing, Web 3.0. If Web 2.0 was social media and user generated content, and Web 3.0 is kind of taken… I’m still a little fuzzy on exactly what Web 3.0 looks like, and specifically, what’s it look like for a brand. If there’s an organization that wants to dabble in NFTs, sure, that’s a marketing gimmick. But how does it fundamentally change a business or even go extreme like the role of the analyst to do analysis of things?

0:25:20.0 AM: Yeah. So I personally think that blockchain and crypto-based products and tech are maybe a core piece of Web 3.0, but not the entire Web 3.0 story, and I don’t know what that looks like now or what that’ll look like in one or two years. But I don’t think that fundamentally, you’ll need to have some sort of crypto-related relation in order to be a Web 3.0 product. But building on that, you said it perfectly that Web 2.0 was the era of social media and user-generated content. But when you have… You think of the biggest YouTube stars and all of the content that they generate and who benefits more, the creator or YouTube? The answer is YouTube. No matter how successful of a creator you are, no matter how much you make, and if you make a living as a YouTube creator, or a Tik-Tok star, or even on Etsy or any of these platforms, at the end of the day, you’re still totally beholden to the platforms, and it might not be directly dollar for dollar, but they benefit from your content far more than you do. And the fundamental difference is Web 3.0, that value accrues to you, the creator, instead of the people who created the platform or at least the value of your work.

0:26:52.7 TW: But what does that look like? Like how?

0:26:55.3 AM: I think like, it’s when you think about art, like artists who are working in the NFT space, there’s a lot of… There are conversations to be had around, like you when you’re using centralized platforms and stuff. And those are sort of different conversations but when you have social media, right, Web 3.0 social media is still in its infancy. There’s a handful of different platforms that are really trying to take this on and taking different approaches to it. The idea is when you’re posting good content… So when I’m posting these really thoughtful responses and going through, and talking about research with people, the engagement that I’m getting on that platform in the form of additional comments, likes, upvotes, whatever, the idea is, that engagement will reward me directly on the platform, either through… Very often through some sort of token, right?

0:27:52.0 AM: So the more you post on this forum and the more people upvote you, the more of the people who… The forum’s native token, you get, right? And then you can use that token for doing things on the forum. And then the idea is, if enough people want to participate on this forum, well, someone might say, “Okay, I’m gonna make an account for this forum, but I have none of the tokens. So I can’t do X, Y, and Z. I can’t use these features. So I’m gonna buy these tokens on the secondary market, so that way when I use this forum, I can access these features without having to spend six months writing and posting and engaging. I’m sort of using my capital to build up a basis in terms of time.”

[music]

0:28:38.6 MH: Alright. It’s time to step away from the show for a quick word about our sponsor, ObservePoint. Hey, Moe if you were going to describe the essence of what ObservePoint is in just three words in a totally spontaneous and unscripted way, how would you do that?

0:28:55.0 TW: I would say it’s a data government solution.

0:28:58.8 MH: Oh, I think you nailed it. Okay. Now, Tim, because we all know that concision is not exactly your strength, [chuckle] how would you, more broadly, explain what ObservePoint does maybe?

0:29:12.0 TW: Well, in the beginning, there were websites.

0:29:16.4 MH: Oh, whoa, whoa.

0:29:17.0 TW: And from what…

0:29:17.5 MH: No, no, this the analyst power, not the analytics power, never-ending exposition. [chuckle]

0:29:24.5 TW: Okay, fine. Then I guess I would say that ObservePoint is a digital governance solution, and that it is a platform that automatically audits your entire website to ensure the data collection is happening as intended. The right tags are firing at the right times with the right data and without errors. And that ongoing auditing can both alert you immediately when it detects an issue and it can also provide you with trended audit results over time as a way to measure the quality of your data governance processes.

0:29:53.3 MH: I’m impressed. I think you could have also added that ObservePoint can also help ensure you’re staying on the good side of consumer privacy, complying with digital standards, and government regulations for collecting and managing customer data.

0:30:06.6 TW: I was trying to be concise, something had to go.

0:30:10.6 MH: Okay, that’s fair, overall. Great job. I know that asking you to be brief is like asking Avinash to give a Gmail conference talk. And so I’m proud of you, Tim, anyway, to learn more about ObservePoint’s many capabilities or request a demo of the platform for your site, go over to observepoint.com/analyticspowerhour. Alright, let’s get back to the show.

[music]

0:30:35.9 MK: Does it, like, I’m just… The thing that I’m struggling with is, it seems like this is a platform designed to create some form of… I’m gonna use the word of equality… I don’t know if that’s the right word. But as you describe more of it, it seems like there are so many different ways you can gamify it and… I don’t know, it doesn’t… And maybe I’m getting the wrong perception, but there does seem to be inequalities built-in, like if you can build bigger server rooms, if you can… Yeah, like buy on the secondary market… Is that accurate or am I totally missing the mark here?

0:31:23.6 AM: There’s definitely something to be said along the lines of like, if you have access to more money in the beginning, you have more options and opportunities than people who don’t but I mean that’s kind of true.

0:31:38.1 MK: That’s the world.

0:31:38.1 MH: Yeah, that’s kind of just true to the world. I think what separates Web 3.0 in this regard from a lot of other web 2.0 analogs of their different platforms, is that there are a lot of designed and deliberate on-ramps to help people who, if you like… If you don’t have any crypto, you can go from zero to one without making an initial investment, and… There’s a lot of inequality in the sense that, people who’ve been around earlier, just if you… I’ve been in crypto in some form or another, since 2016, and that puts me in a different position than people who are getting into it now. Right? And that’s just because of time. But the equalizing factor is that anyone can find a way to sort of build up their position within crypto. So whether that’s, buying some, because you have liquid capital or that’s spending time, like writing blog posts for a community for community grant, like there are a lot of opportunities and it doesn’t really matter who you are, if you want to do something, there is a way to do it. And there’s no credit score, so it’s like if you try to do something and get tokens, you’re not gonna get turned down because you don’t have a long enough credit score or you don’t have a diploma or anything like that.

0:33:10.6 TW: Well, and isn’t one of the functions of, say NFTs to allow for the original creator to continue to receive royalties as that NFT transacts over time. Is that correct?

0:33:23.0 AM: NFTs do allow for a much more direct to create a royalty stream. You hear that talked about most commonly in the music space. There’s still a lot of people who are trying to think very critically about how to really make it work, but that’s a very common problem with the music industry as… I’m not a musician or anything, but as I hear, anecdotally, that seems to be a historic issue of sort of how percentages of future record sales get split between artists and the labels and producers and everything. And there’s like a chart that goes around on social media all the time about how many hours you need to have streaming on Spotify to make a dollar, and it’s like 5,000 hours or something need to be streamed of your songs to earn $1. And it’s like the top streamed artists who are streamed for millions and millions of hours, they’re making nothing, and when you consider how much they had to invest to create that record, that album…

0:34:28.4 TW: But so back to… Just because you might be able to tie the… As you were describing the forum and the creators getting… You were describing the forum, but it sounded that where maybe content was being posted and people were being rewarded and compensated, but how does that not naturally evolve into their crappy forums and there are good forums, and the good forums grow more, and those forums still get paid. How is that not essentially putting us back on a path to large forums where creators are posting content and the compensation is with some cryptocurrency instead of with dollars, which sounds like YouTube running on cryptocurrency or Snapchat running or TikTok or something running on crypto.

0:35:21.7 AM: I, as far as I understand it, I think the difference is that, so where the actual… I guess the element where the actual dollars in the value accrue, instead of it being like shares of YouTube, the company, it… They instead, like the more people who get that engagement or engage on that platform, that value then goes to the token, right? And so in… With the Tim token for the Tim forum, worst example, I’ve ever…

[laughter]

0:35:55.5 TW: I love it. Quintessential analyst token.

0:36:02.7 MH: There you go.

0:36:02.8 AM: Right. Yeah. Alright. So you have the quintessential analyst token that you use as a native… It’s the native token of the analytics power hour, like Slack community, and it like with the… You as a team, you want to be giving creators your token, like it… This, it sounds very crass to say, but putting it bluntly, YouTube doesn’t want to pay people money, they want to reward people for their efforts, but as a company, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders or whatever to generate revenue. They want to earn money, right? Whereas… And that’s because the more money they earn, the more valuable their company becomes and the more valuable their company becomes finance stuff happens. And it’s… That’s where it’s… I don’t know the business stuff or anything.

[chuckle]

0:36:58.1 AM: But whereas with a company that, or a team that creates a token that is sort of like a token powered forum, they want more people using their token. They… I want you posting on my platform and I wanna give you more tokens because you will then… The more tokens you have or… It’s the more rewarded you feel for your effort and the more appreciated you feel for that. And to put it bluntly, when you’re being rewarded with anywhere from like tens to hundreds, to even thousands of dollars, like per engagement in the form of these tokens, depending on how valuable they are, you can feel very, very appreciated, I promise you that.

0:37:42.0 AM: So the idea is that it’s different because when you start getting to that higher scale and you get to that Reddit, that YouTube, that TikTok level, the highest tier level of creators, the amount of, I guess, value that they’re creating for the platform is going directly into the pricing of the token for that platform or it has a perceived connection to the pricing of that token on the market. And it’s better for teams to have more people using them and spending them rather than like holding them for themselves. Yeah. I think that was a… What I was just basically was trying to say, it’s a way that incentivizes these platform creators to give away the money or to share the money they’re generating with their users and community.

0:38:40.4 TW: Yeah. Still, it seems like it’s… If you take the economic forces and you take human nature and you take…

0:38:46.8 AM: It’s a lot.

0:38:48.1 TW: You take creators, there’re… Take 10,000 people creating music, there’re gonna be 9,000 of them that it’s not good music. And the system they… Yeah, it’s like these massive forces that are competing, again, with kind of bad actors looking to take shortcuts, although I would also say with uniformed, I guaranteed, Moe and I are wildly more knowledgeable about crypto currency right now than a large number of people who actually own cryptocurrency, and all they know is they put this stuff in and hope it goes up and hope it goes down.

0:39:30.3 MK: Do they… Is there a big proportion… ’cause one of the things that I’m thinking as we’re discussing this is like, is there a barrier? Is there a barrier to people becoming involved or like Tim says, is that people just get involved because of the hype, but don’t understand it.

0:39:50.4 AM: Oh yeah, yeah. There’s a lot of hype and the barrier to entry to get involved it’s as… It really can be as easy as just like buying a sweatshirt online, right? At this point now, if you were like, I don’t really know anything about crypto, but I feel like buying $50 of Bitcoin just in case, it’s pretty easy and pretty straightforward, and generally, it will change some… In some jurisdictions around the world, it’s a little bit more difficult than others, but for the most part, it’s pretty easy, but when you say get involved and you’re like, Okay, I think this crypto thing is gonna be like the next social media in the next five to 10 years, and you’re like, I really wanna try to wrap my head around this as a topic, that’s like… It’s still a really, really high barrier to entry, we could talk for two or three hours just covering a lot of the basic stuff, and I personally have just a slightly higher than basic understanding of the lot of this stuff.

0:41:00.0 MH: Alright, it’s time for… You know what it is, the Conductrics quiz, the Quizzical Query, the conundrum that provides a lot of humor and joy as we ask my two co-hosts to compete on a tough question. Let’s talk a little bit about our sponsor, Conductrics. The Analytics Power Hour and Conductrics are sponsored by Conductrics and they help build industry leading experimentation software for AB testing, adaptive optimization and predictive targeting. To find out more about how they can help you with those types of solutions for your company, go to conductrics.com. Alright, we’re adding a wrinkle to the quiz, Tim and Moe, so before I tell you about the contestants, if we get to a 50-50 or a choice, the person who picks can… The second person who’s left can choose to also pick the same answer and jump on what we call the bandwagon and be part of the answer, right or wrong. And then we’ll figure it out from there. Okay.

0:42:07.8 TW: This is only once we get to if… Only two answers left?

0:42:11.6 MH: If there’s two answers left and yeah, it’s or I guess type of thing you can do it…

0:42:16.3 MK: Or we feel really strongly.

0:42:17.9 MH: If you feel strong about it or you both are like, we both think we know the right answer, ’cause that’s probably what today… Today I have this feeling it’s gonna be so good. Okay, let’s get into it. Moe, you are competing on behalf of Sam Burge.

0:42:33.0 MK: Hey Sam.

0:42:33.8 MH: Thanks. Yeah. Awesome.

0:42:36.6 TW: She’s a co-worker of mine.

0:42:38.7 MH: And she’s awesome, I met her.

0:42:40.3 TW: Oh Correct, yeah.

0:42:42.8 MH: Alright, and Tim, you are competing on behalf of Adam Mills, listener.

0:42:48.6 TW: All right.

0:42:48.9 MH: Awesome. Alright, let’s jump into it. Of the following, what is the key issue that we need to mitigate to let us use methods from statistical inference for making causal statements. Is it; A sample ratio mismatch, B counterfactuals, C confounding, D instrumental variables and E sample size. That was supposed to be an easy one, that’s not…

0:43:21.6 TW: I feel like the key issue that we need to mitigate… I feel like I know the answer here.

0:43:28.0 MH: Okay.

0:43:30.6 TW: Just to go with it and then Moe decide whether to bandwagon or not…

0:43:34.2 MK: Yeah, I wanna hear what you say before I decide if I am getting on the bandwagon.

0:43:38.4 TW: Oh wow, I think we need to… The issue that we need to mitigate is confounding.

0:43:43.1 MH: Moe, what think of you?

0:43:47.5 MK: I’m jumping on the bandwagon.

0:43:49.1 MH: Jumping on the bandwagon, it’s our first bandwagon, and we’ve got a bandwagon situation folks, let’s go to the tale of the tape. It turns out C is correct. Confounding is when the relationship becomes between an outcome of interest, lifetime earnings, for example, and the potential causal factor, say, years of education is mixed up with some unobserved factor like natural ability that might lead to both more education and lifetime earnings making it unclear if education increases earnings, and if so, by how much. So there you go. Yeah, you’re right. So congrats to Adam and Sam in this particular scenario. That’s what I like to hear. Lots of winners. Awesome, excellent job.

0:44:34.6 TW: And you get a card, and you get a card.

0:44:36.9 MH: Yeah. I like how this whole quiz has turned it out now. Alright, thank you very much. Thank you to Conductrics, our sponsor. And let’s get back to the show.

0:44:46.7 TW: I mean, the reality is we’re six hours into this recording and Josh has done magical job, whittling down to the essence that…

0:44:54.4 MH: That’s right. Just the salient element.

0:44:57.4 TW: Well, you can’t not have a shout out to Astrid Elon from several years ago when she was made a comment in passing, I think we wound up getting her on the podcast to talk about it a little bit like a Super Week recording from years ago where she said, Couldn’t the blockchain… Couldn’t blockchain technology potentially help with media and all of the ad fraud and bots and all of those other could that make media work better. And I think now there have been multiple startups and attempts to do that, the kicker is those God damn economic forces where there’s lots of actors who have no interest in having the transparency in digital media when they’re doing advertising.

0:45:43.2 AM: Yeah, it really presents an opportunity for advertising to, in my opinion, work better if it’s done right, because all blockchain data is public and transparent and verifiable. Now, okay, one disclaimer is that all of this data is public transparent and verifiable, that does not mean that it cannot be private. There are ways to have this public data available while still protecting individual user privacy. I will just make that statement just… I can’t clarify it, but just accept it for right now.

0:46:19.9 MK: Okay.

0:46:21.4 AM: But that being said, because all of this data is public and people know that their data is public, the users have much more control over what data they’re sharing. And in many cases, we’ll see building different sort of crypto products that over and over again, teams are surprised to see that when users have more control over what data they share, they’re more willing to use that data in a back and forth way with you to… Or I guess they’re more… When they control the data they share, they’re more okay with the fact that you’re using that data because they’re like, “Yes, I’ve told you exactly… You only know exactly what I want you to know.” And so a lot of these companies who did a ton of prep work for GDPR back in sort of 2017, 2018 are potentially gonna find that a lot of those data practices and policies around sodomizing user data and how you protect individual PII, are actually gonna be pretty applicable to how you can think about user data in a sort of Web3 environment.

0:47:39.8 MH: Yeah. But if you do trade wallets, if you use the same wallet to do one thing, and then another thing people can trace it to you. So privacy… Yeah. I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just saying it’s not as simple as sort of like, “Oh yeah. It’s just totally private.” We haven’t touched on DeFi or DAOs or…

0:48:02.0 TW: I believe they’re pronounced DAOs.

0:48:03.7 MH: DAOs, thank you, Tim.

0:48:05.2 TW: Again my research, my intense research training was very important for this episode.

0:48:08.5 MH: But honestly we don’t have time.

[laughter]

0:48:14.7 MH: So let me just go a different direction, Anthony, which is, what are you excited about in this space? What’s going on in the space right now that you think is really cool and you’re interested in?

0:48:27.8 AM: Sure. I’m super interested in something called zero knowledge proofs. And they’re essentially what I was talking about how data can be public and transparent, but also private. And it’s essentially a way to say, to prove, sorry, can you tell I’m not a math person. [laughter] But it’s basically a way that… So if Tim has a company and he has a registry of all of his customers. And so he has an event at a hotel and only customers of Tim’s company can attend this event, and I wanna go, but I don’t want Tim to know my name, I just need him to know that I’m a customer, a zero knowledge proof is basically…

0:49:14.1 AM: It’s hashed data that the appropriate party can un-hash only the relevant information without sort of getting all the other… So if you’re a financial institution, you don’t need to know my social security number or my employment history or anything, for this one specific instance, you just need to know that I’m a verified person. And so zero knowledge proofs, I think are, as they get perfected, going to be a huge part of how we can make a lot of these systems function in a very comfortable way for people. I also think that different scaling solutions, there’s on Bitcoin, there’s what’s called the lightning network. Ethereum has different software protocols called layer 2s, which are essentially… They bundle activity into groups that then sort of settle on the main chain to sort of do more efficient batching. But all of these are just ways that people way smarter than me are figuring out how to tackle a lot of the technical hurdles. Because any company who wants or brand who wants to do something Web3, I’m all about it. Like, “Yeah, sure. It’s awesome, it’s great.” But in all honesty you really just shouldn’t because this technology is very cool, but even the most polished products are really in their beta, they’re only a few years old, so it’s like not infrastructure that’s ready for a total massive scale, but it’s getting there. And I’m personally thrilled to be along for the ride while we experiment, figure it out.

0:50:53.9 TW: Well, it’s like you’ve got all the promise of what… That does seem like it’s a privacy solve in theory, but at the same time it’s gotta be adopted. And I mean, even trying to… Even talking hashed email addresses or talking about some sort of public key versus private key, very secure thing, that’s very few people are going to understand it and therefore it’s hard to trust something that you don’t understand until it’s reached mass adoption. Lots of people are driving cars without understanding how it works like, that, it does feel like it’s gonna be the intriguing part, ’cause somebody’s gotta take the lead and try to get scale. And whoever’s taking the lead, they’re gonna have plenty of people looking at them saying, “What’s your agenda? What are you in this for?”

0:51:44.8 MH: And it upsets the apple card around some of the more established players in those kinds of places. Like Google knows all those things about you and they would like to sell that kind of data. And now I read the other day, they’re calling it data clean rooms, which I was like, “What an euphemism.” But anyway, I digress. Anthony, this has been a fascinating topic and honestly it’s sort of analytics adjacent, but in a way analytics is gonna be part of all of this. So…

0:52:16.3 AM: I think there’s… Can I squeeze one more like short point in that I think it might be the most relevant, possible? [laughter]

0:52:24.4 MH: Yeah. I mean, now we’re seven and a half hours in and Josh is like, You’ve done a masterful job of continuing to compress. Go ahead.

0:52:33.9 AM: Now that we’ve covered the history of finance from the Yaps or the rise [chuckle] from the isle of Yap.

0:52:39.4 MH: That’s right.

0:52:40.9 AM: The role of the analyst in the Web3 world is… You know, you mentioned Michael earlier, like, okay someone’s address or your wallet, right? Like your wallet is sort of like, “Okay, this is my account. This is where I hold my Bitcoin.” One of the typical traditional like problems of the like marketing analyst for example, is figuring out like, who are our users? Right. Like, who are these people? What’s our like monthly active users or like monthly visitors, right. Who are these people? And, you know, especially when they have multiple devices, people in multiple households, all that kind of fun stuff, you have the same problems in Web3, where, as your wallet, like one private key can have multiple public keys. So you can have multiple wallets associated with a single device, right. If you have your wallet your crypto on an exchange that looks different.

0:53:32.9 AM: And so when you have someone interacting like Web3 apps, like a lot of them, it’s like a lot of these are just react apps, right? So they’re like similar in structure and like the bones to the websites that we’re used to working with now. But you also have this added layer of like on chain activity, which you can… It adds a completely new dimension to like looking at who your users are and figuring out like, you know, different chains, they classify and address in different ways and understanding those nuances and figuring out like, how does this activity interact… Inform my typical user engagement with my product? How does it support it? And what additional information can you get by adding like the user’s wallet analytics into your, whatever your like, 360 customer view is, is going to be like, it’s going to be a challenge because it’s very different, but it’s a huge, huge area that’s still really unexplored at most like Web3 companies. But once we start getting it right, like I think there’s gonna be a really powerful overlap between the sort of like on chain user behavior and like, in app user behavior, so to speak.

0:54:46.7 MH: I’m gonna add that to my LinkedIn profile [chuckle] on chain analyst. Okay. Well, and so can all of you, now that you’ve listened to this episode. Anyway, one thing we like to do is go around the horn and share a last call. Something we think might be of interest to our audience, Anthony, you’re our guest. Do you have a last call you’d like to share?

0:55:07.1 AM: Yes, my neighbor loaned me this book it’s called Meat: Everything you need to know by Pat LaFrieda who’s apparently America’s most celebrated butcher.

0:55:18.5 MH: Yeah.

0:55:19.4 TW: I got really into making homemade sausage. I have a meat grinder and this book has been super, super informative. And like, there’s a lot of simple things that you can do to level up your meat, cooking game. Those of you who are carnivores that like you might not realize.

0:55:33.4 MH: Oh, man. Nice I like books like that. Wow.

0:55:37.6 AM: Yeah. Like you too can have restaurant quality steak at home.

0:55:42.6 TW: I’m thinking Jason Thompson, Jim Gordon.

0:55:45.3 MH: Yeah.

0:55:45.7 TW: Till Buttner. I’m thinking of some of the analytics people who are constantly growing.

0:55:50.2 MH: All the foodies. Alright…

0:55:51.7 TW: Growing, smoking and foodies, Yeah.

0:55:52.8 MK: Have you have you read Salt Acid Fat Heat? Oh my God, I’m obsessed with that book. And then the Netflix series is delightful.

0:56:00.8 AM: Yeah. That’s really good.

0:56:00.9 TW: What is it? Salt…

0:56:01.5 MK: Is it salt? I’m pretty sure it’s Salt Acid Fat Heat.

0:56:04.9 AM: Yeah.

0:56:06.4 MH: I think might be…

0:56:08.8 AM: Maybe it’s Salt Acid.

0:56:10.8 MK: Salt Fat Acid Heat, yes.

0:56:13.6 MH: Yeah.

0:56:13.8 MK: And yeah, she’s just delightful. Absolutely delightful. I’m trying to remember her name Samin Nosrat. She is like the most lovely human and she just makes me completely obsessed with food every time I like see her, she’s got this like passion for Food.

0:56:28.6 TW: Imagine if she was making NFTs.

0:56:31.6 MH: So you never know, that’s the future. Okay, Moe what about you?

0:56:36.2 MK: Well, other than my favorite cooking related book, I am… I have actually mentioned this before, but I’m going to mention it again, given the topic, but there’s a really lovely podcast by two women in Australia called Maddie and Sophie who are just downright delightful and lovely humans. It’s called You’re in Good Company. It’s more of like an intro level investing podcast, but the reason I’m revisiting it is because they’re actually part of the equity mates portfolio that have a few different podcasts. So they also have equity mates investing, but they also have another podcast series, which I confess I haven’t listened to, but I will be after this episode, which is called Crypto Curious where they go into a whole bunch more detail about like NFTs and cryptocurrencies and all that sort of stuff. So if you wanna hear more, I can really recommend the Equity Mates Network. They’ve got a bunch of really lovely content.

0:57:25.1 TW: Moe, we don’t recommend other podcasts. People can only listen so much and we’re not gonna get any of the, any of our native cryptocurrency tokens from them listening to other creators.

0:57:36.8 MH: Since the person who inevitably refers to another podcast about almost every last call, which incidentally, Tim, what is your last call?

0:57:48.4 TW: So listen to this podcast. No.

[laughter]

0:57:50.7 MH: Yeah.

[laughter]

0:57:53.8 TW: I will say I, this was very helpful for me, partly ’cause I felt like I had to do a lot of prep work just to, I was gonna say “Not sound like an idiot.” I’m still pretty sure I sounded like an idiot to half of our audience and do it, and an asshole to the other half. So that would be about on par with the norm. But I will recommend The Latecomers Guide to Crypto by Kevin Roose of the New York times, which is, has been out for a couple of months. And if you track down there is mollywhite.com did like an annotated version of it. That’s like point-counterpoint. And it, to me, it was actually a pretty good in depth read for something that I definitely still fall on the skeptical side of, but for something that I do actually understand, and this is just a fun, little bit of like empty calories, Earth Reviews, this was kind of making the rounds a while back, but it’s Neal, N-E-A-L.fun/earth-reviews. And basically it’s like a hundred plus categories of just things that happen on earth and it’s like reviews about them. So I mean, it’s everything from Sloths, to coffee, to hiking, to spreadsheets, which is… Which is hanging out there at three stars. I gave it five stars.

0:59:09.3 MH: No. I was gonna say…

0:59:10.6 AM: Three seems low.

0:59:12.2 TW: Yeah. Well…

0:59:12.3 MH: I do like this one place.

0:59:14.3 TW: And you can put it… You never thought that he can put in a review and it does go through like a moderation. But it’s got things like, the reviews are all really short. Like for spoons, there’s a review that is from Brian, “Pretty good tool for eating. But there’s a glitch when I try and clean my spoons, the water just goes everywhere, developers please fix.”

[laughter]

0:59:33.5 MH: So that’s kind of the nature. I mean, it’s just… Yeah, it’s like a fun little sample of what if you had, like bizarre voice style reviews for Earth. And it’s a light fun.

0:59:48.2 AM: I see this, spiders and dentists are about the same. That’s interesting.

0:59:52.7 TW: That checks out, doesn’t it?

0:59:53.9 MH: Yeah, where abouts.

0:59:56.1 TW: Alright. What about you, Michael?

1:00:00.1 MH: So I ran across this a little while back. And it’s a kind of a cool website, it tracks shipments into the United States. That are like whenever you put something in a container and ship it, you have to like put a bill of lading on it. And that is data that’s stored and this website is democratizing a lot of that data, as you can just pick a company, and it will show you when they have shipped things into the country. And it’s kinda cool. Like I just randomly clicked on, pick a company and it showed me Hot Topic, and Hot Topic ships all their clothing from probably China or somewhere like that. And you can see exactly, when and how much tonnage and all those kinds of things. So if you’re an e-commerce person, you wanna look at your competitors, maybe you can see when their last shipments arrived. It’s kind of a neat website. It’s a very specific little piece of data, but I like it a lot. And big props to the folks who made it. I don’t know anybody behind the site, but they obviously put in a good amount of work to make that a reality. So it’s called ImportYeti.com. So anyway…

1:01:04.7 MH: Alright. You’ve probably been listening, and you probably would like to talk about your favorite cryptocurrency that we didn’t mention on the show and make sure that everyone knows about it. And we would love to hear from you. The best way to do that is through the Measure Slack group or on Twitter or on our LinkedIn page. And you could also email us at contact@analyticshour.io. And Anthony, you’re also active on social media. Do you want to share your Twitter with people?

1:01:35.9 AM: Yeah, you can reach me on Twitter @Mandelliant. So that’s @M-A-N-D-E-L-L-I-A-N-T. And I’m pretty much on Twitter all the time.

1:01:50.0 MH: Yeah. Great follow. I learned all of my crypto stuff from Anthony. So that’s where I find all the things I know about crypto. Alright, well, no show would be complete without thanking our awesome producer, Josh Crowhurst, taking what was an eight-hour marathon of crypto knowledge and condensing it into what you’ve just heard. Great job, Josh. We can only thank you for your amazing efforts. Alright. I know that, if you are on the blockchain, no matter if you’re doing proof of work, or proof of stake, or proof of cooking sausages better or whatever it is, just one thing you should remember. And I know both of my co-hosts agree Moe and Tim when I say, keep analysing.

1:02:40.0 Announcer: Thanks for listening. Let’s keep the conversation going with your comments, suggestions, and questions on Twitter at @AnalyticsHour on the web at analyticshour.io, our LinkedIn group, and the Measure Chat Slack group. Music for the podcast by Josh Crowhurst.

1:02:57.8 Charles Barkley: So smart guys want to fit in. So they made up a term called analytics. Analytics don’t work.

1:03:04.6 Tom Hammerschmidt: Analytics. Oh my god. What the fuck does that even mean?

1:03:13.3 MH: I do want to proof of stake if that, is that in the meats book? Is there information about proof of stake?

1:03:19.3 MK: I literally just bought it. I was like, I can’t go another second without having this book. Because…

1:03:24.6 TW: That does look super nice. Yeah.

1:03:24.7 MK: It just… I feel like it’s gonna be right up my alley.

1:03:30.0 MH: Moe.

1:03:30.4 MK: What?

1:03:30.8 MH: It was a very clever joke, I was making.

1:03:34.0 MK: Oh, I missed that.

1:03:35.1 MH: You just… I wanted to know if there was…

1:03:38.0 TW: Proof of steak.

1:03:40.2 MH: Information about Proof of steak in the meats book. You were so excited. You probably bought it with Australian dollars. Like…

1:03:48.4 TW: Dirty fiat currency.

1:03:50.6 MH: Government backed currency. Yeah.

1:03:55.9 TW: Dirty fiat.

[laughter]

1:03:57.8 TW: Yeah. Well, hey, you’re the reason why I actually minted NFTs on the Tezos blockchain. So congratulations.

1:04:06.8 MH: And don’t blame me on that.

1:04:08.1 MK: You just said a whole sentence that I don’t know, what it means.

1:04:11.4 TW: No, no, no. I had the over on it. I was like, “Well, Michael volunteered that he minted NFTs.” Will that be in the less than one minute after I start recording?

1:04:21.0 MH: No. I t was greater than one minute.

1:04:23.4 TW: I said one minute.

1:04:23.9 MH: One minute.

1:04:24.1 TW: I’m like, surely, he will be able to… He saw that light go on and he was like, “I gotta say that I’ve minted NFTs.”

1:04:30.8 MK: I’m not gonna lie, a lot of the data nerds in Canva are very into this and I just kind of sit on the periphery and I’m like…

1:04:40.0 TW: Not today Moe, we go and eat.

1:04:43.0 MK: Not today, we’re diving in.

1:04:45.0 MH: That’s right. Come on, Moe and Tim, Please, try to look cool in front of my friend here. Okay, common.

[laughter]

1:04:56.0 TW: That shit failed.

1:04:57.9 TW: Rock, flag and NFT.

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