#309: Interviewing in a Dynamically Evolving Job Market

00:00:00.00 | Announcer: Welcome to the Analytics Power Hour. Analytics topics covered conversationally and sometimes with explicit language.

00:00:15.33 | Michael Helbling: Hey, everybody. Welcome. It’s the Analytics Power Hour, and this is episode 309. Okay. A listener reached out to us and asked if we had any tips on interviewing. Thank you, Saad Islam. And sadly, we do not. Or, I don’t know, maybe we do. Interviewing for a job is something we all go through. It’s a process to test your knowledge and skill, also your nerves. And we’ve done shows on the job market before, but with everything changing in our industry lately, I think a conversation with some of our thoughts on interviewing in today’s market definitely could be in order. So, let me introduce my co-hosts. Moe Kiss, Director of Data for Product at Canva. How you going?

00:01:00.03 | Moe Kiss: Pretty great, actually.

00:01:01.48 | Michael Helbling: I would say you’re probably more the interviewer than the interviewee these days, if I had to guess. But that’s good.

00:01:07.18 | Moe Kiss: Yes.

00:01:08.10 | Tim Wilson: Unless there’s something you probably don’t want to record.

00:01:12.56 | Michael Helbling: Also, that brings us to Tim Wilson, quintessential analyst and running his new consultancy, Analytics the Right Way.

00:01:19.78 | Tim Wilson: Hello.

00:01:20.92 | Michael Helbling: And, of course, Julie Hoyer, Associate Strategy Director at Further.

00:01:25.42 | Julie Hoyer: Hi.

00:01:26.09 | Michael Helbling: And I’m Michael Helbling, President, Stacked Analytics. Okay, let’s dive in. First off, just level set. When was the last time any of us did any interviews of any kind? Because I think that’s probably the first level setting thing that we should probably talk about. It could be internal, like, you know, for a role that you’re in now at the same company. I feel like that still counts.

00:01:48.70 | Tim Wilson: I’ve done two phone screens in the last eight months that were miserable from the start. That’s pretty current. For roles I wasn’t interested in.

00:01:58.06 | Michael Helbling: I did an interview, I think, in late 2024, right, as like, I was wrapping up the partnership with Stacked Analytics and relaunching it. And it was sort of in a moment where I wasn’t sure what to do. It went so badly, I was like, yep, I’m sticking with Stacked Analytics. Keep going. But, yeah, that was my last kind of interview.

00:02:20.31 | Moe Kiss: Yeah, mine’s been years. Yeah, ditto. My last interview was seven years and three months ago. Four months ago.

00:02:26.62 | Michael Helbling: Nice.

00:02:26.90 | Moe Kiss: That I did. Wow. The last interview I conducted, though, was like a week ago. Oh, yeah.

00:02:31.09 | Michael Helbling: Nice.

00:02:31.48 | Moe Kiss: Conducted an interview? Yeah, last week.

00:02:34.06 | Michael Helbling: Yeah. And I don’t know. Does interviewing someone on a podcast count? Because then it would be a couple weeks ago. Yeah. No. Okay. So let’s dive into it. You know, I think one thing that almost every good analyst has because of imposter syndrome and the way the job market has shifted is, you know, you can kind of do the job, but it’s sort of like, how do you get yourself in the room and deliver sort of what the companies are looking for in that moment? You know, I think that’s sort of like one of the big challenges, you know, when you finally get your stuff together, apply for a job, like, how do you kind of deliver in that first interview?

00:03:16.21 | Tim Wilson: Which to me seems like it’s, I mean, I’m not interviewing, but it seems like it’s a little tougher right now because everyone’s expecting that you… They’re going to ask questions about AI usage and like the dynamically shifting landscape and you’re walking in saying, how do I articulate the skills and talents and experience that I bring? But the question may not come at you that way.

00:03:43.74 | Moe Kiss: Yeah, but I think there is this part about being authentic and I know that it doesn’t come naturally for everyone. And one of like, one of the things I often… Think back about is, yeah, look, you have to overcome nerves and you’re obviously trying to show your best self. And I think that’s really hard, especially because I think some of what’s changed is the expectations are even higher now because of AI, right? Like there’s an expectation you can know everything almost. And so I think showing that, I don’t know if vulnerability is the right word, but if you can demonstrate what… You know and what you don’t know and be curious when you don’t know things, like that’s actually the skill I’m looking for. I’m not looking for people who get the right answer every time. I’m looking for people who are humble and willing to learn and excited to learn. And I think you can do that in an interview by like being transparent. But I sometimes feel like I obviously, for me, that comes very naturally and I don’t think it does for lots of people.

00:04:50.50 | Tim Wilson: Like you can come in prepared and then you get a very specific… Question. And maybe that isn’t really what happens, right? We tend to ask, interviews are still largely behavioral. Tell me about a time that you did something. Maybe stepping back to those who, which is Moe and Julie on the how you’re running interviews, there’s the behavioral component that I assume is still there. Tell me about a time when. And those you just need to be prepared for. And then there’s kind of the technical, which I feels like it can be. Scarier. If you’re like, I’m not really a SQL person and they will have SQL in the job description. What is my response? I know I can do it and it’s easier now because I’ll have coding support. But like, and maybe that’s, those are two different things. And I know some companies structure it as there’s somebody, there’s the behavioral interview, there’s the culture fit, there’s the technical. But I feel… And part of we have like Saad’s whole note and part of his was like verbalizing the technical. Like how do you get between like knowing how to execute code, but kind of bridging to like, but it’s the value about how I think about the problem, not whether I know the syntax perfectly.

00:06:17.98 | Moe Kiss: The biggest thing, like when I started interviewing someone, I’ll be like, the purpose here is to get to know you and to have a conversation. The best thing that you can do. Is to think out loud. And that is really hard, I think, to do because you’re worried you’re going to say the wrong thing or make a mistake. But that’s where you can actually show the value, right? Because when you’re thinking out loud and you’re like, okay, this, I’m going to run this particular function and I know it’s going to have this output. But I’m trying to connect that output is like back to the business question. And I know the business question is this. And is that output going to align with it? If you can talk out loud as particularly in technical interviews. I feel like you’re like… I feel like you’re like five steps ahead. And maybe that’s something that folks need to practice ahead of time is like getting used to. It’s like, think about a math test when you were a kid, right? Like show your workings. It’s kind of the same concept.

00:07:09.31 | Michael Helbling: Yeah. Because I think I very much agree with that, Moe. when doing those kinds of interviews, I was much more interested in how they were tackling the problem and how they could look at it from each angle and ask good questions about how they would potentially solve it than if they had the specific technical skill in that moment. And I think sometimes like we get it twisted a little bit and there definitely are companies that are out there interviewing and they’re like, oh, if you make one code mistake then we’re going to wipe you off the board. And so people think they have to be able to be perfect with coding. Technically, I’m not sure you want that job if they’re interviewing like that. That’s not a good company. So it’s sort of like it’s helping you out a little bit in that process, even though while you’re looking for a job, it doesn’t feel like that. But that’s right. The way that you approach that is just to verbalize, yeah, here’s how I would tackle it. Because, like, that’s me all day, every day. I get so in my head about a technical interview because I don’t think of myself as that technical. And yet, like, I’ve got a good amount of technical capability, but like I’m not as good as the people I know that are good. And so if I ever got in that position, I would be so flummoxed. I’d probably like trip over everything. But that’s what I would do. I’d be like, okay, so here’s how I sit down and figure it out. And maybe I can’t write the code in front of you. But by gosh darn it, I’d be done writing the code by the end of the day because I don’t stop until I figure it out. And if that’s not good enough for them, well, okay, we’ll move on. And there you go.

00:08:46.50 | Julie Hoyer: Well, and I feel like you a lot of times with a technical role, it’s more important that you can communicate at all about what you’re thinking or doing for the people. That you’re working with. Like to your point, Michael, like I wouldn’t be shocked that there are a lot of companies out there or interviewers out there that would appreciate if you didn’t know everything off the top of your head compared to you’re willing to talk through it and collaborate with them. Because at the end of the day, that’s going to probably move the business forward or their team forward better than you were able to keep it all in your head and spit out like, you know, the exact things you were going to use. But without any reasoning or any like behind the curtain revealing how you think through problems.

00:09:26.37 | Moe Kiss: I think there’s a difference also between being so transparent of like, I don’t know this thing at all. Because sometimes I feel like people do that. And you have to be like really thoughtful about how you do that, particularly if it’s like a required thing, right? I might have talked about this like many years ago on the podcast, but the best advice, the absolute best advice I ever got was from a PM at Google. And she’d been doing some interviewing. And she said, I was like, what’s like the hardest, weirdest interview question you ever got? And it was one, I think Atlassian were doing it at the time, which was like, how would you build a spaceship to go to the moon or something? Like it was something that it was just like, huh? And her thing to me, the advice she gave me, because I remember I was doing a lot of interviewing at the time. She’s like, when you don’t know something, be curious. Right. And I remember in my Canva interview, this is how I knew it was the right job. There was a function I didn’t know. And I said, I’m not familiar with that function. I really love to learn. And someone was like, oh, I can help show you how to run that function. Like, let’s walk through it. Another interview I went to was like, oh, you don’t know that function. And like that also, like you said, Michael, helps you understand. Right. But like there’s a difference between I don’t know and oh, I’ve not come across that before. I’d love to understand it. And I think that’s the real like it’s a hard thing to get right when you’re feeling nervous. And there’s three people interviewing.

00:10:56.01 | Michael Helbling: In the right environment, not knowing something can actually put you in a different category of candidate in a positive way. And it goes to exactly what you were saying, Moe, which is how do you approach it? Like show the curiosity, show the interest. And the best advice I ever got about interviewing was people hire people. So like you talk to the person, not to the job. And that is always really helpful because it’s sort of like, well, what are they looking for? What’s we? What’s the best way to get the job done? And then you just read the person in the room and figure out like what that’s like. And sometimes people are not great interviewers. It’s kind of a dance sometimes, you know, like you sort of everyone’s going through the motions in a certain way. And you just have to find a way to break through and make a connection. And sometimes in those technical interviews, that’s a great way to do it is just show a little vulnerability.

00:11:50.00 | Tim Wilson: Michael, what happens when you give a whole company access to the same analytics app?

00:11:55.40 | Michael Helbling: Ideally insight, but historically, maybe panic.

00:11:59.60 | Tim Wilson: That’s fair. That’s why I like what Ask-Y’s Prism is doing with agents and row-level security.

00:12:06.20 | Michael Helbling: So the agent can build the analysis, but different users only see the rows they’re allowed to see.

00:12:11.30 | Tim Wilson: Exactly. One app, one analysis, different views based on the user.

00:12:16.30 | Michael Helbling: The East Coast manager sees East Coast results, the West Coast manager sees West Coast results.

00:12:21.90 | Tim Wilson: Neither one gets to casually browse the other team’s numbers.

00:12:25.90 | Michael Helbling: Which could be helpful, because “Oops, you weren’t supposed to see that” is not really a governance strategy.

00:12:30.90 | Tim Wilson: Meanwhile, the agent can still do the heavy lifting, answer questions, and build the experience.

00:12:36.90 | Michael Helbling: You get powerful AI analysis without turning every dashboard into a company-wide group project.

00:12:42.80 | Tim Wilson: Exactly.

00:12:43.80 | Michael Helbling: Love it. Useful, controlled, and significantly fewer awkward Slack messages.

00:12:48.90 | Tim Wilson: Want to check it out? Click the link in the show description and get on the Ask-Y waitlist.

00:12:53.90 | Michael Helbling: Use code APH when you sign up and they’ll move you to the top of the list.

00:12:57.90 | Tim Wilson: Code APH. Smart agents, appropriate boundaries. What a concept.

00:13:04.30 | Michael Helbling: Tim, one of the fun things about Stape Relay this year is that a couple of the speakers should sound pretty familiar to Analytics Power Hour listeners.

00:13:13.30 | Tim Wilson: Yes. We’ve had both Simo Ahava and Juliana Jackson on the show, and they’re both part of a pretty incredible speaker lineup.

00:13:21.40 | Michael Helbling: Yeah. It’s happening November 10th. It’s a free virtual event for technical marketers, analysts, and server-side tracking practitioners. It’s got 18 practical sessions across two different tracks.

00:13:32.90 | Tim Wilson: So you can bounce between product sessions and broader strategy depending on how deep into the weeds you want to go.

00:13:37.40 | Michael Helbling: And the speaker list goes beyond Simo and Juliana, with people from Google, Julius Fedorovicius from Analytics Mania, and more.

00:13:46.90 | Tim Wilson: There’s also live Q&A, and Stape will be sharing its next-generation GTM template roadmap developed with Simo and incorporating community feedback.

00:13:55.90 | Michael Helbling: And did I mention the best part? I think I did, but I’m going to mention it again. It’s completely free.

00:14:00.70 | Tim Wilson: So click the link in the show description and register to attend Stape Relay.

00:14:04.72 | Moe Kiss: But do you know, if someone said to me at the start of an interview, hey, just letting you know I feel very competent technically, but I am a bit nervous, I would be so receptive to that. I as an interviewer would be like, I mean, also, especially Julie, I don’t know if you feel this way, but I interview so much and I find them quite enjoyable because I get to chat to someone, I get to know them, I get to hear about their story, and I try and set that to be the atmosphere. But it’s been over seven years since I interviewed. It’s hard to put myself back in their shoes. So I obviously try and make it as, like, comfortable as possible. But, like, if someone said, look, I’m actually really, like, I’m pretty nervous, that would be a good reminder for me of, like, this is that person’s experience right now and, like, give them a break. But, yeah, as I’m saying, the vulnerability is a hard balance to get right.

00:15:03.30 | Tim Wilson: Which, not to get super tactical, but I do feel like there’s an application for AI that’s pretty simple here, which is if historically you’re like, we’ll do a bunch of interviews because you’ll get better at it. get developed and people who are getting back on the market and haven’t been for a while, they’re like, I just need to go and interview even if I’m not that interested because I got to develop the muscle. And to me, that is something that because there is massive amounts of information about what sorts of questions get asked and how they get judged and what good answers are, I think it’s eminently straightforward to say, I’m going to pick my AI platform of choice and I’m going to throw stuff at it and I’m going to say, ask me questions and I’m going to use the voice to text feature. And now this is, I mean, I’m on that like hobby horse a bit. I watched this happen with a former coworker of my wife’s where she was doing a practice interview. My wife was the practice interviewer, but it’s like, well, she didn’t have to wait for you. Like she could have, she could have easily done that just that throw me a curve ball and I need to ask, in the moment. And you know what, I’m also going to tell my, my Gem or my Claude chat, my Claude, whatever it is to provide feedback based on, you know, how I responded and take it with a grain of salt, but kind of getting in the reps. So I kind of equate that to like presenting and, and other aspects of where you’re needing to like be in the moment. Like there’s a lot of like nonjudgmental stakes, but it’s still going to get your heart rate up and, and use AI to practice.

00:16:56.58 | Moe Kiss: Okay. So there is a person I know who does listen to the show, who was pretty nervous about like the stats direction that data science is going and feeling a bit out of their depth. And so they’ve been doing some stats lessons with a very well-known statistician who works at Canva, who has been a guest of the show. And they’ve been like doing these lessons to kind of like improve their skills. And they, yeah, they wanted to test themselves and be like, I don’t think it was so much if I go to market right now, it was more like, I want to know that I’m developing the skill. And so they said to Chelsea, Hey, will you do the stats interview with me and see if I pass it? Right. So practiced rehearsed for it. And Chelsea, who is like, if you get Chelsea to give you a thumbs up on a stats interview, you’re doing very well. And this person did that as part of their professional development. Like, I think, I think public speaking is very similar to interviews, right? Like you have to like, honestly, the number of people I know who turn up to a behavioral question interview and don’t have like 10 examples lined up. Shocks me. Tell me about the time you managed, like had to performance manage someone who didn’t agree with you. Tell me about the time you took the team through like a difficult transition. Tell like, there are 10 questions that you should have an answer almost rote-learned for behavioral stuff. And I get very frustrated when people are like, uh, let me, think about that. And you’re like, I used to have 10 pages of behavioral questions prepped, ready to

00:18:27.40 | Michael Helbling: go. Yeah. Cause you’re, you’re hoping they ask those types of questions because you’ve got a story locked in with powerful points that showcase exactly what you want to communicate. Like Tim, you kind of said that off the top. So, you know, Tim, maybe you could talk a little bit about that sort of like, how do you do that prep or how do you kind of think through that structure?

00:18:49.02 | Tim Wilson: I mean, so I, that, that was something, I did. And right now, like the whole world, it’s, it’s a, it’s a meta world where I have permission to like play with AI stuff because I can say, well, this is kind of fun and interesting and I’m learning, but this also could also become an example in and of its own, in and of itself. So when I was heading down the path for, let me see if I am interested in a full time job, I did sit down and make like a 40, plus page corpus of my experience. And I kind of use Claude to kind of come up with a structure for that, but just like barf everything out and it can be unstructured. Like this is like a magical new world. I mean, this is like me sounding like an AI Homer. But then having that corpus to say, I mean, I wound up with like separate prompts. I had a resume generator that would match the job description to the resume. I have a, but I have an interview prep one where, it’s going to ask me, is this the phone screen? Is this an HR screen? Is this a technical interview? Is this behavioral interview? And it will take the job description and my corpus and start like probing me like for practice questions, which this is one of those funny things, like just the exercise of saying, I’m not going to be constrained to a two page resume and try to get my bullets perfect. I’m just going to try to just write down everything that I can think that I’ve done over the last 10 years. And as new things occur to me, or as I try new things, I’m going to sort of capture those. I think that exercise just been like, oh yeah, that, that kind of built my confidence a little bit of saying, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I have done something. You know, I’ve done some things that would not be likely to come to me in the moment. Cause, oh, that was seven years ago, but that was kind of a really, you know, I did do something that was actually kind of unique. And useful in a really difficult situation. And then having that, and then saying, now I’ve got this thing that lists all this stuff, probe me, dig, push me to figure out what my behavioral examples would be. Come up with the most common behavioral questions, prod me and say, hey, that time you were working with this client, was there anything that felt like that? And get me to, get me to think about it. So, but that I, the counter to that is by my nature, I’m kind of a writer. I can write, 40 pages in, you know, easily, like it’s just going to come up, but whether it’s dictating, whether it’s whatever, I was overly verbose, like AI. I sent somebody something today where I was like, this is a lot longer than I thought it was. And I didn’t use AI. So thank God I didn’t use

00:21:37.90 | Michael Helbling: Gemini on this, or it would have been way too long. Yeah. I think two points. Cause like what Moe was talking about, like be ready for those questions, you know, we’re coming, like what’s your greatest weakness? Like if you can’t nail that question, I don’t know that people ask that anymore or not, but like that used to be a pretty common interview question or like, what are your greatest strengths? Like those are questions that’s your time to shine, like be ready for those and just teed up and crush the ball. And that’s great. And then I think now in the age of AI, yeah, you want to show up with a portfolio of projects and things you’ve done. Like I used to tell digital analysts back in the day, like go make your own website, put analytics on it and show that you’ve done some of this work, that you’ve looked at your own data, that you know how the data works. Like it puts you in a whole other category than somebody who shows up and is sort of like, not sure what things are. Like, it’s just that ounce, every hiring manager out there is looking for people with drive, initiative, curiosity, knowledge, experience, those kinds of things. But honestly, like, the value on things like, I was interested in this, so I pursued it and I accomplished this. Okay, that immediately puts you way outside the curve in terms of who the crowd coming in to do these interviews is and puts you in a whole different class of candidate, especially at an IC level. I would say as a leader or like leadership types of things, there’s different things that you probably want to do. But like as an IC, the fact that you’re doing things on your own, and I know the question is going to come up of people, like, well, I work a full time job, like I don’t have time to do a portfolio of other projects understood. So your job is your portfolio, and you should be able to speak to those stories. But if you’re job seeking, and you don’t currently have a job, then use AI to build a portfolio of things you’re interested in. It’s like, and it doesn’t have to be, you know, like anything like Jacob Matson, who was on the show a few episodes ago, he’s doing all this data work with sports data. So he gets a hold of like NBA, stats and he makes data products out of them. Like anyone could do that. He’s just, that’s a hobby of his because he’s a nerd like us. And so he’s making these data products with NBA and NFL data. Well, you could go grab all the same data or any free data, weather data, currency exchange data. Like there’s lots of data sets out there that you can go slam into a database and maybe you can’t get a free version of Snowflake or Databricks, but you could absolutely spin up a BigQuery instance or Supabase or any of those things and produce a portfolio of things you could like at least talk to in an interview to show that you’re like doing things. Because I think that’s also one of the things that people are looking for. It’s like, okay, be nervous all day long, but like be motivated and show some intrinsic initiative. Julie, can I ask a question?

00:24:36.81 | Moe Kiss: Totally unrelated. For technical interviews, do you now allow AI usage? Oh my gosh.

00:24:44.59 | Julie Hoyer: It’s like… You were a fly on the wall last week. We were talking about this that, and I cannot remember, and this would be a critical piece of information, but we were talking like it was very obvious that the person had used AI. And we were kind of talking about, I think in the instructions, I don’t believe in the instructions we said you could or couldn’t. And it didn’t say they couldn’t use AI or maybe there was like softer language around like, you know, try not to use AI, something like that. Right. So like that’s where we were at. And the person, what they brought back, it was very obvious AI. And everyone was kind of like, oh, and it’s hard because they will have access to AI in their job. But I think what rubbed people the wrong way was not that they used AI to help them. It’s that they only took what like the AI output. Like it was not, you know what I’m saying? It was just like very obviously like not touched after talking to AI. But we were having the discussion of like, well, we didn’t, you know, strictly say do not use AI. And I think that’s what we were talking about. And I think that’s where we were getting into like the actual conversation about how can we use AI at all? But this person obviously, even with the soft language that was in the instructions, didn’t care to, you know, kind of craft it into their own final product.

00:25:56.16 | Tim Wilson: I mean, that makes me feel like in a technical, I mean, I would, it seems like it would be amazing to watch somebody use AI, not see it, not try to look at their output. But I am convinced there are people who still don’t prompt well. don’t necessarily know where Claude Code is. I mean, but the output is another one. Like, well, if this looks like clearly AI to us, then you’re going to be producing stuff that’s going to look clearly like AI to our clients, which I think consultancies are really grappling with right now.

00:26:32.31 | Moe Kiss: Julie, I would mark someone down for that. Not because they used AI, because they didn’t use AI well.

00:26:37.50 | Julie Hoyer: That’s exactly what we were thinking, yes.

00:26:39.92 | Moe Kiss: Yeah, so like, we’ve always allowed people, we say work as you would normally work, right? And so if you are dealing with a particular problem, and like back in the day, you would go to like Stack Overflow or whatever to troubleshoot. If you need to do that, you can do that. And that is always fun to watch, Tim, because you like watch what people search for and things like that. And now, obviously, we’re dealing with the same with AI. But what I do find is, number one, when people are using AI, the bar is significantly higher. We all expect it to be better, right? And I think that’s a fair… a fair standard to enforce. But I do think it means both the quality of the work and the quality of the interviewers and what they pick up on has to be much higher, right? Because the bit then I’m looking for is like, did they make a code mistake because they used an LLM output that was wrong? And did they pick up on that? And if they didn’t pick up on that, which, like I said, it sets a new standard for the interviewers, because the interviewers also have to be like, on the fly, be like, is that LLM output making a wrong join or like, you know, referencing the wrong table or whatever, which I do think is hard, but it does mimic the way we work. Yeah, totally agree.

00:27:56.50 | Tim Wilson: But I mean, there’s the higher order. If it’s an assignment of here’s a data set, and here’s the question and pull it back, there’s like the absolute… To me, the two that would be absolutely not acceptable is somebody who just went old school and clearly didn’t use AI at all. And they just went and they didn’t get very deep because they didn’t use the tool. The other one would be, I threw the data at the LLM and just asked it questions. And it may or may not make mistakes. And I think what I would be looking for is, oh, this is clearly somebody who inspected the data, maybe used AI to do some exploratory data analysis. And then they came up with kind of an approach And then they, I mean, if it was me, I’d say, let’s make a Quarto document to explore this. Let’s make a Quarto document to explore this. I want to visualize it this way And would actually review it. Like, it feels like there’s, AI is fascinating because there are people Who are just like so dismissive. They’re like, I don’t want to work somewhere Where we’re using AI. And it’s like, well, good luck. Like that’s, that you’re not going to be an effective employee. You’re not going to be able to get the output. There are the others that are like, “Whee, it’s magic! You know, give me insights.”.

00:29:17.53 | Michael Helbling: Yeah. But I think that’s absolutely right is working well with AI and understanding how to get results out of it. Because at the end of the day, like a good analyst is all about how you think about and approach and break down the problems. And all of the hard skills are all methods for doing that. So if an AI is helping you with that hard skill, that’s fine. You still need to own the overarching, does this make sense? Or it produced this result. Does that pass? Like, does that feel right to me? Like, because I understand that I took the time up front, right? Like Tim said, to like understand and pull the data in and get a sense for what it looks like.

00:29:58.53 | Julie Hoyer: Even outside of like the technical output, though, like just interviewing other analysts or strategists that I’ve interviewed lately, like I want to know that I can… I can collaborate with them. Like, is their output not just AI slop? Like back to that, right? Like, are they communicating clearly? To your point, are they curious? Do they want to learn? Do they want to get in deep and like problem solve? And then the AI part of it, I’m like, I don’t really need to know what AI is good at. I need to know what you’re good at, like outside of what AI enables us all to do. Like, what are some of those other skills that you bring to the job? And to your point, then like, you can enhance other parts of your workflow with AI or whatever. But I just feel like those things, like to me, are more important now because AI is out there. You know what I mean?

00:30:49.88 | Michael Helbling: Julie, were we still requiring a writing sample when you got hired at Search Discovery? We might have changed by then, but I know the first few years… I might have changed it.

00:30:58.04 | Julie Hoyer: Yeah, it might change. I don’t remember.

00:30:59.76 | Michael Helbling: Okay, don’t worry about it. But in the first few years of college recruiting, we did ask everyone to submit a writing sample along with the interview process, simply because how people communicate was so important.

00:31:10.42 | Tim Wilson: Interesting. Was that a prompt? Were they having to respond?

00:31:12.92 | Michael Helbling: They could submit anything they wanted. It could be a paper they wrote in college, for all I care. I just wanted to see what their writing looked like.

00:31:18.74 | Julie Hoyer: Wow.

00:31:19.24 | Michael Helbling: Yeah, they don’t need to write anything new. I just wanted to see how they wrote.

00:31:23.00 | Moe Kiss: Interesting. And Julie, can we just talk about, like, what a good example looks like there? Because, so the problem, I know we’re all doing this, but, like, literally, I read, like, 50,000 analyses. They all look the same. We were talking about this yesterday where I’m like, I open one up and I’m like, I don’t even want to read it anymore. And like, technically, technically, I looked at one yesterday and I’m like, it is correct. It has a McKinsey title, like inside headline. It has correct bullets. But I am like, it is 10 pages on a topic that I don’t care that much about. I’ve struggled to even want to read the TLDR. Like, and there was a few of us chatting in the leadership team about like, we were just getting flooded with these documents at the moment. And the expectation is that we read them and digest them. And I think it’s lazy. But like in that example, Julie, that you had, it sounds like that was a similar situation, right? Where I’m like, the bit, if someone had turned up and said, here is the AI output I got. But we all are having this problem where we don’t want to read and engage with this. So I have thought of a really creative way to use my brain to come up with an output that you want to engage in. And here is that bit. I would be like, 10 out of 10. Crush it.

00:32:40.11 | Julie Hoyer: Yes. Yeah. Crush it. Crushed it. Totally agree.

00:32:42.35 | Moe Kiss: So what’s the way that we get people to engage with it? Asking for a friend?

00:32:48.48 | Tim Wilson: Man, that feels like a whole other podcast. I feel like you’re hitting the crux. Everything is getting longer. Yes. Everything is clear. Everything sounds and feels the same. And there is, I mean, it’s comical. It’s comical when you talk about great presenters and you go back and it’s like JFK, Martin Luther King, Steve Jobs, all these presentations that didn’t use, that were just the person and their words. I’m not saying we should be going away from slides or going away from communicating the information. But that’s why I can just, in an interview context, boy, if somebody came in and said, look. I used AI. If you’re curious, this was after eight iterations. This is the full report that I had. But honestly, in my experience, people are overwhelmed by this and they’re not. So let me just stand up and tell you three things that I think are going on. And then, and here’s like two visuals. And then if you have questions, we should talk about it because I went back and forth enough with this that I feel like I understand the data. Maybe this is me projecting right now because I’m working on. But something where I found myself having to go look at the data because what the AI was producing and saying, well, this was kind of a weird thing. I’m like, I better go make sure that is a weird thing and you’re not just coming up with it, which meant that I was getting a deeper understanding of the data. So now I feel like with that client, I actually have the same way I would have without AI. I have a deeper understanding of the data and the quirks of the data.

00:34:36.48 | Julie Hoyer: But I’d rather hear that you did that exercise with AI. And then you’re like, and I. I made one slide based on what I learned after talking to it. Or I don’t let AI write my emails to clients. I’d be like, that is a point for you in my scoring. I just feel like keeping it a little bit precious about like, yeah, I use AI to stress things, to speed it up or stress test things, speed up my workflows, help me question things, pull out things that I maybe didn’t think to go look at, whatever. Like that, I do think is great. But if it comes down to like the communication and we’re talking about. Like the AI slop and you can tell it’s been written by AI. Like I am kind of to the point where I would ask people like, can you just try to write the final communication without AI? Like, let’s just like start ground zero. I mean, I don’t know if that really is realistic, but I’ve been tempted in a few situations. Like we had a whole, whole training for a large group of my coworkers that have come out of college. And I gave them an exercise and it ends up they all put the deck in the AI. And lo and behold, what came out was, you know, very, very similar and it wasn’t edited a ton. And like, I don’t know, I just feel like if they had read through the couple of slides and tried their own slide themselves first, like I bet they’d have a better output.

00:35:58.54 | Tim Wilson: Wow. This does go back to who said people, Michael, was that you who said that people hire people? So that’s like, the AI is going to suck the personality out of it. Yeah. And it’s, yeah. So I feel like that’s where you’re, and the same thing goes when we’re like working with clients. Like people don’t, they’re not hiring you because they’d like to be talking to ChatGPT. I mean, it’s like, so there’s a part where it’s like, well, you need to come in with your, and Moe, you said it at the start, like just be comfortable with who you are. Like, and if you’re, which is, which is tough. Yeah. But it’s also goes to the other topic that’s kind of bubbled up here, which is, we haven’t explicitly said it, but you’re interviewing, you’re interviewing them too. And this can be tough if you’ve been out of work for a long time and you really need a job. But if you, if you’re working and you’re looking for the next thing, if you have any ability to say, I’m going into this, I’m more concerned that I’m excited to work there than I am concerned that they think I can. And actually like the phone screens I had, I went in thinking, I, this is going to have to be a really great conversation for me to have any interest in going forward. And it wasn’t, I mean, I think one of them, we somehow we went and ran along on one. I don’t know why, but, oh, no, I do know why. Cause he showed up 15 minutes late and I, and it was booked such that I had to like head to the airport and I was like, okay, I made this kind of clear. Yeah. That was bad on many fronts, but I found that in the times that I have, which really the last time was search discovery. I was going into those interviews much more. Is this something that I will be excited about and want to do? And yes, I prepped and yes, I had examples and yes, I was ready for those conversations. But my mindset was, I’m more worried about me being excited about getting hired. By them than I am about proving that I can do the job and rant.

00:38:17.04 | Michael Helbling: Quick hitters. Another thing I really look for in an interview process is lateral thinking. So it goes back to Moe’s point about curiosity and, but like bringing in other things. So if you have an experience or interests that are not in direct line with the job, find a way to connect them anyway. And you can even make a little game of it because you can sort of say, all right, I want to talk about this in the interview. So I’m going to find a way to kind of relate that into something. And it can actually be a fun way for you to make a personal connection. And be like, I have a hobby where I really love this. And one of the things I think about all the time is like how I do this and this, and sort of in a way it fits into this way. And that can actually be really cool. One of the coolest interviews that ever did was with a woman who had done Teach for America.

00:39:08.59 | Tim Wilson: I thought it was going to be me, but… Yeah.

00:39:10.71 | Michael Helbling: I have no idea what your interview process was like at SDI. I was like, pretty sure I was like, yeah, sure. Whatever. No, she came in and she had no background in analytics. She’d been doing Teach for America since you graduated from school, but she did an incredible job of aligning that with how she would approach being a data analyst. And of course she knocked it out of the park and wasn’t what was incredible.

00:39:35.13 | Tim Wilson: Quit two years later. Cause she was like, I’m too good for these people.

00:39:38.35 | Michael Helbling: Um, well, I don’t know what happened there. Cause I think I probably left that company before she did, but anyways, yeah,

00:39:44.73 | Moe Kiss: I had, I had someone who was pretty rusty on SQL and managed, I don’t know exactly what it was, but they, they did all their SQL queries in Python. Um, I wasn’t in the interview, but I heard about it and they passed because the point wasn’t, can you write SQL? I mean, the, the thing that I’ve been reflecting on a lot lately, and I’ve been chatting about it. It’s, it’s like come up in multiple situations lately. And I think the thing that’s really scary right now is you just feel like you have to have this breadth of expertise on so many different topics. And I got a really good piece of advice, um, from a senior engineer here who, who was like, Moe, everything I know about your career, the thing that stands out to me is you have the ability to learn that when you need to learn something technical, you can. Right. So all those topics that you don’t know about, you just don’t need to know right now. Right. Cause you can’t know everything. So I think that is a really interesting thing. Like you said, Michael, of like the lateral thinking of the point you might want to bring into the conversation is like my SQL is a bit rusty, but what I do know is that when I have, like, when I’m excited and interested, I can learn something. I was able to learn to do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I know if I were to get this role, I would have that same, like. Interest and desire to learn blah. That’s going to make me successful in the role. And I think there’s a way you can do that by. Bringing in the right examples.

00:41:11.05 | Michael Helbling: And the other thing that that benefits you, I think is don’t be afraid to show that you’re passionate about something. So even if it’s a personal interest or hobby or anything else like that opens the door for you to express and show a little passion. It’s a little weird to be like, I’m passionate about getting this job. Like nobody believes that, but like they would absolutely believe that you have an interest in something and that you’re excited about it. And actually, as long as you don’t go too far off the wall, people want to go with you on that and be into. The thing you’re into. Yeah.

00:41:40.58 | Tim Wilson: I am really into like on the side. I’m a dominatrix. You know. Yeah.

00:41:45.54 | Michael Helbling: Again, I feel like. Find work appropriate ones, Tim. Like Tim’s passionate about PowerPoint slides. That also doesn’t do very well in interviews, but you know what I mean. All right. So, and then the last one, and I think everyone will agree with me is like, bring some excellent questions to ask the interview.

00:42:05.40 | Tim Wilson: Yes. Yeah.

00:42:06.56 | Michael Helbling: Like, oh, it drives me crazy. Like you go through this. This whole process. You’re like, all right, what questions do you have? And they’ve got nothing. And you’re just like, so like, what are we even doing here? You don’t care. I don’t care. Like we just wasted each other’s time. Like what?

00:42:21.28 | Tim Wilson: I will say if it’s, if there’s been a real dialogue conversation and calling out saying, well, the biggest question I had was actually, you know, how the team actually collaborates. But I sort of feel like you kind of answer that in some ways, but I’ll ask it, you know, directly. Do you have. I don’t know if there’s anything else to add, but that’s another area that, that, I mean, definitely researching the company, knowing what’s going on in the news, like all that’s AI makes it super simple and AI can, but this is, this is that other fine line. And I can tell you good questions to ask. That’ll be the rote. Like, what is the team dynamic? How are decisions made? You better find the ones springboard off of that and come up with like, what do I really want to know?

00:43:07.44 | Michael Helbling: Yeah. Cause sometimes you’ll get people to ask questions. Questions have nothing to do with you as well. So be like, uh, you know, like what’s the, whatever. And you’d be like, I don’t know or care about that. It’s not anything to do with my job or the job you’ll be doing here. So like, that doesn’t bother me. It’s not disqualifying. It’s just not as fun to get into those questions.

00:43:28.14 | Moe Kiss: But yeah, I, I definitely mark up people who ask questions and ask good questions at the end. If people have no questions, that to me is a red flag.

00:43:36.04 | Tim Wilson: Can you put you on the spot? What’s a, what’s a good question you’ve been asked? Or is there any? Any memorable ones?

00:43:40.02 | Moe Kiss: I actually, when it comes to senior people, I actually do like the question of like, can you talk me through how decisions are made? Because I know that might seem trite, but it actually allows you to share a lot about a company’s culture very easily. I think that’s, I find a very good question. The question that I always used to ask is like, what do you think is the biggest problem facing this team in the next 12 months? And then I would. I would never answer it, but I would always send a follow-up email saying, I thought about that question. Here is how I think I could help you solve it over the next 12 months. Because then you have like a hook to like go back in with something memorable versus just a thanks for your time email. But the time I actually think questions are really important are particularly in the technical, in the scenario, like a scenario, because we do a scenario as well. That is where I really want to see people ask questions. Because you’re. You’ve been given a brief. The people who just churn through and some people will be like, okay, these are the assumptions I’ve made. Are they like, are they reasonable assumptions? And I’m not saying ask, spend the next 20 minutes asking 40 questions. But when people are like, I’ve got this brief and now I’m just going to answer. Okay. What’s the KPI? Like I want people to start a dialogue there. And if they’re asking me questions in the interview, I have a good belief that they would do so with their stakeholders working through a problem.

00:45:07.50 | Tim Wilson: Can I ask one other question? This will be a little dated by the time this comes out. But how do, where do we land on bringing in an iced coffee or an iced latte to a interview?

00:45:15.72 | Michael Helbling: I wouldn’t care. As long as you bring one to share, it’s going to be no problem.

00:45:21.10 | Tim Wilson: I totally, this is where I feel like I should.

00:45:23.24 | Michael Helbling: No, there was a news article a few weeks ago, Moe, about something. I don’t even know what it was about, but there was a discussion about iced coffee.

00:45:30.38 | Tim Wilson: It’s popped up on a number of mine, my different channels that there was an HR recruiter for large companies. And she was like. Don’t bring your iced coffee to an interview.

00:45:42.58 | Michael Helbling: I don’t understand why that’s a problem.

00:45:44.46 | Tim Wilson: I’m, I’m, I’m completely on board with that. I’m like, and one of the points she made is she’s like, it looks like you’re just running errands. Like you went and you refilled the car, you stopped by Starbucks, you’re stopping by the interview. You’re.

00:45:56.64 | Moe Kiss: I, I mean, I did feel bad. I ate some, I ate a bit of a snack on a call the other day, an interview, which I felt awful about. I was on, I’m always on mute because I type a lot. Um, and I felt very bad and very subconscious, but I also was like, I’ve been in. eight hours of meetings and I haven’t eaten and I’m going to like.

00:46:10.84 | Tim Wilson: Not the interviewer. This is the interview.

00:46:12.88 | Moe Kiss: No, I know. But I’m like, sometimes an interview is like, you have to bring your whole self. It’s a fucking coffee. Like people have to bring a coffee.

00:46:21.62 | Julie Hoyer: They offer you a drink usually when you go to an interview.

00:46:24.56 | Michael Helbling: Yeah, exactly. That’s why I don’t bring one is because they’re going to offer you a water or something. And usually I’ll say yes. Yeah. So, you know, that’s how you start. Yes. Yeah. I accept the beverage if they offer one in an interview. Absolutely.

00:46:37.86 | Moe Kiss: Oh, I would. I would never.

00:46:39.13 | Michael Helbling: I would just a water.

00:46:40.13 | Moe Kiss: Because then the person has to go get you one.

00:46:42.63 | Michael Helbling: Yeah. But the whole point is like, I’ll go with them and we’ll talk about the office and the layout.

00:46:49.61 | Moe Kiss: Okay. All right. That’s better.

00:46:52.01 | Tim Wilson: You’re like, why are you offering me water? I got my big old iced latte right here. What the hell?

00:46:56.51 | Michael Helbling: I’m carrying my big tumbler of. Yeah. No. All right. We’ve got to wrap up, but I’m glad we covered the iced coffee part of it for Saad, because I’m sure they were wondering.

00:47:08.63 | Tim Wilson: What?

00:47:09.13 | Michael Helbling: That was okay, Tim. All right. But we do want to go around the horn and do some last calls. Something that maybe our listeners would find interesting. If you’re interviewing for a job, hopefully the rest of that conversation was interesting. If it helps you find a job, please let us know by the way, because we want to know what tips and advice worked so that we can put, we keep a scoreboard. And so obviously we want to put a score up for whoever gave the best advice. All right. Now the last thing we do on the show is go around the horn and share a last call, something that might be of interest to our listeners. Why don’t we go around and do that? Moe, do you want to kick us off? What’s your last call?

00:47:45.88 | Moe Kiss: Sure. So I’ve taken a leaf out of Tim Wilson’s book and I have signed up for a newsletter, which I normally don’t do a lot of newsletters because I never read them, but I have a very high interest.

00:47:54.88 | Michael Helbling: With you there.

00:47:55.88 | Moe Kiss: So I signed up to Caroline Criado-Perez, who’s the author of Invisible Women. She has a newsletter that goes out. It is lots of stuff. So I kind of can’t summarize. Okay. I’m not sure if it’s the full breadth of topics, but like lots of different research on topics similar to the vein of the book. The most recent one that I found really interesting had to do with the invisibility of older women and actually women feel more comfortable looking older, like having wrinkles if other women around them do too. And so it’s a really interesting piece of research to do with like, you know, injectables and the makeup industry and things like that, of the more women that you see who mirror the way you look. The more confident and comfortable you feel. So anyway, there’s lots and lots of different articles in there and points to a lot of incredible research. But it’s one that I’m actually really enjoying reading. So.

00:48:48.88 | Michael Helbling: All right, Tim, what about you?

00:48:49.88 | Tim Wilson: I’m going to go with sort of a broad, find your way to get yourself to non-vendor conferences in person. I feel like the fall season of MeasureCamps, Michael and I were at MeasureCamp Chicago, MeasureCamp London happened a month ago. Datatune. And Nashville was coming up in the spring, super week. I’m just kind of of the getting an IRL with other people in the space. I’m just kind of a big fan on saying, figure out a way to pull that off, offer to volunteer if it’s one where you can’t afford, but it’s near enough by, to find a way to get to them. This community is so. Great that you’re missing out on something if you’re not in person.

00:49:41.67 | Michael Helbling: Hear, hear. Absolutely. All right, Julie, what about you? What’s your last call?

00:49:47.94 | Julie Hoyer: All right. Mine’s a little off the wall, but it’s about, you know, bringing a little whimsy into your workday. One, sometimes it’s nice to take handwritten notes or at least like my brain dump of a to-do list. Maybe that’s not everyone, but if you have to use a pen, I was gifted a pen that I heard are sold in large packs on Amazon. I’m not sure if you’ve seen it. It’s called the Dog and Cat Pens. I’m going to give you guys a view. It is so stinking cute. Its ears move. I like to put it in like speedy mode with the ears back and then you click the tail to use the pen and I just find them so delightful. Honestly.

00:50:23.32 | Moe Kiss: Do you know what I need though?

00:50:25.46 | Michael Helbling: Is the pen good?

00:50:26.46 | Julie Hoyer: The pen is good. I am picky about the pen.

00:50:28.94 | Michael Helbling: That’s the good thing. Yeah.

00:50:31.94 | Moe Kiss: So I have someone in my life that I would buy that for, but they need a felt tip pen and I’m guessing they’re not felt tip.

00:50:37.44 | Julie Hoyer: It’s not felt tip, but it is a good little, it looks like it’d be scratchy. It doesn’t not, it does not write scratchy because I’m weird about that. I like the gel pen feel.

00:50:47.30 | Moe Kiss: Can you link, can you link me?

00:50:48.86 | Michael Helbling: Nice.

00:50:49.46 | Julie Hoyer: Yeah. We’ll have it in the show. Yeah. They have cats too.

00:50:53.00 | Moe Kiss: The thing that I also love is like, I’m always looking for things that I can fiddle with in meetings. And if you don’t have the ears, then you’re just going to click the button and that’s really annoying. So stop it, stop it, stop it. The ears are good. Being, yeah, having something to play with, I think is good.

00:51:08.41 | Tim Wilson: Do the ears last? I mean, if you had an ear fall off, that feels like it’d get pretty sad.

00:51:12.50 | Michael Helbling: How much fidgeting are you doing, Tim?

00:51:15.79 | Julie Hoyer: No, I mean, I haven’t put it through like it’s 500 paces yet, but so far so good.

00:51:20.27 | Michael Helbling: Report back. All right. We need to get a shipment out to Moe right away so she can start to, she’s got a lot of meetings.

00:51:26.55 | Moe Kiss: No, one of my, one of my stakeholders, one of my stakeholders writes everything down and draws as you’re talking. And I love it on real paper.

00:51:35.77 | Tim Wilson: That’s nice.

00:51:37.21 | Moe Kiss: Visualizes everything. It’s such a like.

00:51:39.11 | Tim Wilson: What size? Like, is it like big old, like big old like.

00:51:42.13 | Moe Kiss: Sometimes she comes in with A3 paper folded in half. Like that’s often it, but it’s often whatever paper is around. Anyway, sorry, Michael. Over to you.

00:51:50.25 | Michael Helbling: I’m jealous of people like that who can do that. It’s such an incredible skill, honestly. Okay. My last call, speaking of people with skills, a good friend of ours, Trevor Paulsen, who used to be with Adobe. I think he’s on his own now or doing something. Oh, no, he works for a different company now. But he started a blog at the beginning of the year.

00:52:10.31 | Tim Wilson: My one time of presenting at Adobe Summit, I co-presented with Trevor.

00:52:14.81 | Michael Helbling: Oh, nice. See, I knew we had a podcast connection there somehow. But he was trying to work with AI, so he decided, why don’t I write my own version of a journey analytics tool? And so he kept track of his progress throughout the year as he worked on it. And so it makes for some really interesting reading on using AI, building with AI, and things like that. So it’s just a good read. So we’ll put a link to it in there, but yeah, Trevor Paulsen’s blog, it’s a good read. And shout out to Jim Kultgen from Amplitude, who is the one who told me about it. So that’s my last call. All right. As you’ve been listening, you’ve probably been thinking, oh, good thing I listened to this right before this big interview I walked into. And we hope you nail it. We really do. And go out there and do a great job. But we’d also love to hear from you, not just about interviewing, but about anything of interest to you on the show. There’s ways for you to submit topics on the website. You can also reach out to us on the Measure Slack chat group, on LinkedIn, or via email at contact@analyticshour.io. And we’d love to hear from you. So keep bringing those messages. You can also request a sticker. If you want one for your laptop or your water bottle, we will send it to you. And you can find that form on our website, analyticshour.io as well. All right. Listen, it’s tough out there in the job market, and especially with AI changing, everybody’s going to have to be very careful about what they’re doing. But one thing I’m positive about, and I know all my co-hosts agree, Tim, Julie, and Moe, no matter what job you’re working towards, keep analyzing.

00:53:54.65 | Announcer: Thanks for listening. Let’s keep the conversation going with your comments, suggestions, and questions on Twitter at analyticshour, on the web at analyticshour.io, our LinkedIn group, and the Measure Chat Slack group. Music for the podcast by Josh Crowhurst.

00:54:15.51 | Charles Barkley: Smart guys wanted to fit in, so they made up a term called analytics. Analytics don’t work. Do the analytics say go for it no matter who’s going for it? So if you and I were on the field, the analytics say go for it. It’s the stupidest, laziest, lamest thing I’ve ever heard for reasoning in competition.

00:54:36.30 | Michael Helbling: That’s what we’re going to do.

00:54:37.90 | Julie Hoyer: I like that.

00:54:39.20 | Michael Helbling: We actually.

00:54:40.10 | Julie Hoyer: Fucking genius. For podcast morale.

00:54:42.50 | Michael Helbling: Yeah. It’s not even that.

00:54:44.60 | Moe Kiss: No. For annual planning. For annual. Yes.

00:54:49.40 | Michael Helbling: So Tim can get angry with us in person.

00:54:52.40 | Moe Kiss: And we can storm out of the room.

00:54:55.10 | Michael Helbling: We’ll make sure to have an extra room Tim can storm out of.

00:54:58.70 | Moe Kiss: Oh my God, Tim, we can all stay in a house together and be together all the time.

00:55:04.50 | Tim Wilson: Again, where am I going to storm out to? Can we do a Vegemite martini? Ew.

00:55:11.10 | Moe Kiss: I’ve never tried a Vegemite martini. Someone has made that.

00:55:15.30 | Michael Helbling: Probably you could do a Vegemite martini, but me, it would not take very much Vegemite. There’s two ways that I’ve had it. Spam musubi, which is really good. And also in a Korean dish called budae jjigae, you cook it in there and it’s also pretty good that way too. So yeah, there’s a couple of preparations of spam that are pretty good. You can also fry it and eat it as like a breakfast meat.

00:55:37.90 | Tim Wilson: Tony, we’re about to start the show. Tony, enjoy. Tony, if there aren’t outtakes from this, you’re…

00:55:45.90 | Michael Helbling: Include that as an outtake, Tony. All right.

00:55:52.00 | Tim Wilson: Rock flag and don’t bring iced coffee to the interview.

00:56:08.30 | Michael Helbling: Oh, Jesus. Jeez, jeez, jeez.

00:56:11.00 | Tim Wilson: If you do though, just make sure it’s not really high condensation yet on the cup because

00:56:17.00 | Michael Helbling: you don’t want to leave like a circle of like…

00:56:19.70 | Tim Wilson: Just don’t bring it.